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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.

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  2. #22
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Data is data. The only thing that could change is your interpretation of it, or the data itself. Si does not interpret -- it only collects and then associates, which means A is A, regardless of which Si user perceives it. Si is not Ne.
    Collection comes from perception. Perception is relative to each person. Si is not simply A is A, it is a large amount of past stored information that dictates "what is" for the person. Just like how everyone can have different Ni's, everyone can have different Si's. Everyone can have different backgrounds, different beliefs, and/or tradition and/or view of the world. If a Muslim Extremist came to the United States, would you think he has Independence relative to the norm-society of the United States?

    There are no "facts" here. Just popular beliefs...

  3. #23
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    They seek a more controlled environment than INTPs, but are the last type to give up self-sufficiency in order to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.
    Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.

  4. #24
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I see you guys want all the nice parts of independence and not, say, the asexuality and the closed-mindedness.
    I know the isolation of independence all too well.

    I don't see how independent = close-minded, unless you're suggesting that considering information outside of yourself & from other people is being dependent....I don't see it that way. I also don't see independence as totally positive - it has a lot of negatives, and being somewhat dependent on people seems pretty natural & healthy to me (you know "no man is an island" and all that jazz).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #25
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Collection comes from perception. Perception is relative to each person. Si is not simply A is A, it is a large amount of past stored information that dictates "what is" for the person. Just like how everyone can have different Ni's, everyone can have different Si's. Everyone can have different backgrounds, different beliefs, and/or tradition and/or view of the world.
    Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.
    Whoa whoa whoa...you misunderstand Si. People's Si is different because people's experiences are different. The experience is individual, and the present data is compared to previous individual experience. That's why Si is actually not quite as sharply sensual Se: Se is like the here, the now. Si is like...what happened before in that person's life. Put that person in a very different situation from which they came, and trust me, they could come across as quite the stubborn individual. "Well that's not the way I've always done it..." or "I wasn't raised that way."

  7. #27
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.
    All extraverted functions would appear to lean towards conformity with external forces. There is no difference.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    INTJ and INTP are both pretty independent but I think independence is more of a driving force behind the INTJ - a singularly defining characteristic. The INTPs that I've known have been more accepting of the reality of how things are. I don't know how to put this delicately but they are far more likely to suck up to others in positions of power in order to get ahead. An INTJ would be much less likely to do this. For good or for bad, the goal of the INTJ is independence. I'm not sure INTP is quite the same.
    I would question this perspective. My creed is the alcoholics' prayer (tho I rarely drink):

    G*d grant me the ability to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

    In an organisation of 2000 employees I am probably the least likely to be accepting of how things are if the status quo is ineffective or toxic. I am known for questioning authority on the hard questions and was the academic staff member selected to serve on a committee to establish anti-bullying policy and procedure.

    My poor MD had his perspective and existing policy questioned and challenged by me on more than one occasion. We did end up with educational and informative policy and procedures and a completely new selection criteria for management selection which was far more people centric than had ever been before.

    I am known in our org. for identifying issues but instead of just bitching about them, getting in and finding and scoping solutions to those problems - a forte of INTPs.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  9. #29
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I know the isolation of independence all too well.

    I don't see how independent = close-minded, unless you're suggesting that considering information outside of yourself & from other people is being dependent....I don't see it that way. I also don't see independence as totally positive - it has a lot of negatives, and being somewhat dependent on people seems pretty natural & healthy to me (you know "no man is an island" and all that jazz).
    INTJ closed-mindedness is when they don't countenance whatever it is that other people toss up as queries or debate points, most ideally because those things are irrelevant and other people don't know it yet. Which is to say, the INTJ has independently chosen already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Theoretically, Te is an adaptive and/or systematical "conformity function" that stresses organization and collection instead of isolation.
    Not under introverted intuition, it's not. When intuition is taking the lead, thinking serves. Thus the usual INTJ idea that reality is what *I* construct it to be.


    Not entirely sure why there's a debate about who's the most independent except that independence is a value to some people, even perhaps some types. I'll be betting the different types are leaning on different ideas of independence. INTJ because they'll be wanting to say they can make any connection there is, even the unthinkables; INTP because they'll be saying they can reach the truth of any concept... or something, I dunno why INTPs claim independence except that dominant subjectivity always makes one think one is one, and separated from the other.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  10. #30
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Si can collect distinct stores of data. No two people's Si functions are different, merely for the same reason that no two computers' hard disks are: because they have received different data. There's no internal modification there, thus no individuality, no independence.
    Your saying that one person can view something the exact same way another person can?

    Regardless, the cause of "received different data" is enough to distinguish that one Si can't be the same as another Si. Because that would mean a person can have entirely the same exact life as another person.

    Si is not just about the process of storing information but also "what data is stored". The reflection and looking "back" is Si but also "what has been stored" and/or what is being reflected on.

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