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Thread: T women & F men

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    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Default T women & F men

    Reading PinkPiranha's blog about her INFJ father, and what a nightmare he can be made me realize that I really can't picture what an INFJ guy would be like - it seems to me one of the most quintessentially feminine types, and I don't know how a guy would cope with those tendencies in a society that wants him to be ESTx

    Similarly, I've a friend with an ENTJ daughter who finds it extremely hard adjusting to a society that wants her to be a Feeler.

    There obviously are Feeling men and Thinking women on this board and in the world generally. I've heard runvardh alluding to the difficulties he has being Fi dominant and yet living in a society that expects men to shut up and bottle up their feelings. I've also heard whatever mention that being a Thinking woman can sometimes have her labelled a 'bitch' or seen as 'too assertive'.

    I've always been an ENTP - albeit that in years gone by I was a very shy and unconfident one that might've come across more like INTP. But I've lived in both genders. I've had years of people criticizing me and condemning me as a female for qualities I possessed which, now that the world sees me as male, I get little but praise or affection for. And vice versa!!

    I know there is a huge double standard - everyone knows this. What I want though here, is to give Thinking women and Feeling men an opportunity to share their experiences, and also anyone else who is close to anyone of that description. Maybe you have some stories to tell too about how they find things difficult, or maybe you have some questions about how you could sympathize with them better, which could be answered here.

    I know it's a bit close to Christmas and maybe people aren't up for an in-depth sorta thread... but if not we can always resurrect it in the New Year
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    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm a T female who always has tended to date F men! we've always joked that I'm the man in the relationship and they're the women! Nothing like having to hug your boyfriend to console him at the end of The Notebook, which he MADE me watch! *sigh* of course my male friends always call me a cool dude in a chick's body because I like sports, beer and getting in pointless contests to prove our manliness! I've even been told by a guy, "you know what? you're really cool and such, but it would feel really wrong to date you- I mean, not physically, but mentally- you're like a brother to me" :horor: eeek!

    Of course my good ESFJ male friend gets made fun of by his friends for ironing his clothes and crying at lots of things (funny- he's a military man) and gets told by girls that they feel safe with him since he's not a threat to them and such

    I guess it would be easier to switch personalities!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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    That's pretty funny whatever, though it echoes some of my own experiences whilst living as a female... the idea that guys see you as great fun but not dating material. I was complimented by it because I was more interested in girls in that way, but how does it make you feel?

    There's also the annoying thing of being T female/F male often being equated with homosexuality. I find this quite annoying... I wouldn't think of Carebear or runvardh as camp or anything, but they both so are Feelers. But the whole "women feel safe with them" thing... that could get annoying too, like the male equivalent of what you described: they just want to cry on their shoulders and talk to them, but don't see them as potential nookie!

    edit - oh, and of course, having learned a lot of 'F' from being forced to live the larger portion of my life so far as a female, I of course get it thrown at me that my identity is not valid because I'm not 'masculine' enough - that is, stereotypically masculine. I've had people seriously look at me and suggest that I might not really have a male mind because I don't care about and can't play football...

    It could all be pretty insulting and upsetting... anyone add to that?
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    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I've gotten told, you're a fun fling, but dating you would be like dating my friend Bob! (and now we see where my purity test score comes from! ) It's kind of depressing I'm obviously a chick if you look at me! (of course, I'm attracted to EVERYONE- so this is confusing for people to understand in itself! ) I've always had more luck dating FJs because they were a nice complement to me being me I guess? *shrug* Oh well, I survive still I guess- it would be easier to be an F though!
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    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I know a male INFJ. He is a coworker of mine. Before he took the mbti test, I would have guessed he was a T, but after I sent him a link to the test and he took it and came out INFJ, the dots connected and I could totally see it.

    He is very opinionated, is pretty cynical, and is highly sensitive and emotional once you get to know him, and will speak his mind to those he trusts; but in work situations he is very businesslike, matter-of-fact, and direct. To those who don't know him, or at initial meeting, he could easily come across as rather cold and abrasive. He also happens to be gay; I don't know how much that comes into play either, if at all. He has told me that as a teenager and in his early 20's, he was rather a troublemaker, was into more of the goth scene, and went through a big partying/self-destructive phase before he straightened out (as he puts it - not my words!).

    One of my INFJ friends has told me about her coworker who is a bachelor in his early 50's. She tells me she's the only one in the entire office who really 'gets' him (and she says it's because he's a male version of herself - albeit an unbalanced, 'unhealthier' one), and everyone else is kind of turned off by him. She tells me he is pretty emotional/combustible, but he just displays very negative emotions -- more of the cranky, bitter, outwardly cynical/unpleasant sort of character that people tend to shy away from. But because she sees something beneath this rough/cynical exterior, she has gotten to know more who is underneath. When she described all of this, a light bulb went off in my head, because it made me recall a former male coworker who was exceedingly unpleasant to be around - just really moody, and usually negative emotions, and you kind of walked around eggshells with him, or were 'scared' to talk to him because you didn't know what mood he'd be in that day - would he be condescending/harsh/volatile, or upbeat and trying to be optimistic and pleasant and engaging? He was just...combustive?...and put up a really harsh/callous front most of the time...but I now strongly suspect he was a male F. I mean, maybe not, but it just got me to thinking.
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    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    those are good points cascademn... would it be more difficult for a Feeling male to be a healthier version of his type, because society doesn't help him to develop his natural inclinations but rather, condemns them and forces him to suppress them?

    Also, this brings to mind for me the thing I learned when transitioning, which is that in society there are far more 'ways' to be female than there are to be male. There is considerably broader scope for a girl to wear trousers and go skateboarding and stuff without anyone doubting her femininity (they might joke about it, even cruelly, but they don't really mean it and totally see her as female) - this I learned when I came to transition and so many people refused point blank to try to see me as a male, even though all my time of knowing them I had so totally never been right as a female.

    Meanwhile, for men, all it takes is a bit of nail polish and everyone's doubting his sexuality and gender, and if he tells people he's gay or wants to transition to become a woman, people are like "Oh that figures, he always was a big girl!"

    ...following on from which, makes me think that perhaps a T woman could have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type, than an F man?
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    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I know one ESTJ female who really has difficult time with her being T. She is one of the older generations so when she was young, girls were not allowed to be as T as these days (I would think so).

    When I first met her I thought that she is ESFJ because she looked so friendly towards people. Her emotional reactions were a bit too strong in different occasions and I started to wonder why I did not have any emotional response to her feelings. (This is because when a person is going through a emotion, I can feel it in my own "guts". So, when somebody is sad, I feel like I have to comfort them. I never had this feeling with her.) It took a lot of time before I realized that she was faking her emotional responses! That was the reason why I NEVER reacted to her emotions even if I ALWAYS react on other peoples emotions.

    I think she had learned from early on to hide her T side and she really tries to act like F. She is not F and she will never be F. I think it's sad that she does not approve herself and that she tries to be something that she is not.

    Another example.
    My ex boss at work was slightly younger female as I am. She is ENTJ. She is very in touch with herself and she does not try to be F. She is very efficient and has this charisma and authority that I have very rarely seen. Even the older men listen to her and totally respect her at work. And those men really do not usually listen to women's opinion (I’m talking about technology related things at work). So, my ex-boss is excellent example of extremely well balanced ENTJ and good example how a woman can still do fine with being T if she only accepts herself (and maybe has very understanding parents who let her be what she needs to be.) .

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    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    those are good points cascademn... would it be more difficult for a Feeling male to be a healthier version of his type, because society doesn't help him to develop his natural inclinations but rather, condemns them and forces him to suppress them?

    ...following on from which, makes me think that perhaps a T woman could have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type, than an F man?
    I wouldn't really know, but it seems very plausible to me that a T woman would have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type than an F man, due to cultural and role expectations. I don't know enough F men though. The only other F male I know is an ENFP, and he seems pretty healthy to me. Edit: oops!! I know an INFP male too, and I'd say he's very healthy.

    The two ENTJ women I know *thrive* in the working world, and are also really goal-oriented and on top of things in their personal lives. They are a force to be reckoned with. However, in their personal lives, they both tend to have more issues with romantic relationships, for various reasons. One of these two I consider unhealthy though, but due to things outside of mbti, and having very little to do with the F/T thing, that I don't want to go into here.

    And the one EnTJ woman I know seems to be pretty healthy overall as well, and aside from a few interpersonal issues at times, she's very balanced, well-liked, friendly, and pleasant.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I've also heard whatever mention that being a Thinking woman can sometimes have her labelled a 'bitch' or seen as 'too assertive'.
    Looking back (in my admittedly mentally incapacitated state (I'm sick )), I can't remember suffering for being a Thinker while growing up.

    My parents are both TJs like me (mother=INTJ, father=ISTJ) so I never felt pressured by them to be different.

    I know my insensitivity (and inflexibility) got on my middle school best friend's (ENFP) nerves. She'd get hurt by (or exasperated with) me, switch to hanging out with various other friends and then come back to me when she was ready to put up with me again - which was too soon for me to learn from my mistakes.

    I've just been informed that it's time for bed! I'll continue this post tomorrow.

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    Okay Economica, sleep tight! But for when you next drop by... your parents being both quite similar to you must've made a big difference.

    How much would the parents' types affect a person's chance of being healthy, particularly in cases like these? Presumably an ESFJ/ESTJ pairing as mom and dad respectively would find it very difficult to accept, say, an INTP daughter or an INFJ son... do you think?

    I'm thinking now of my ISTP dad and his very stormy relationship with my ENFP brother. Dad was pretty old school and had visions of his 'only' (as he thought!) son following in his footsteps. He wanted to teach him all the manly arts of mechanics and carpentry and stuff, but my brother just wanted to read 19th century novels and write poetry. Dad used to call him effeminate because he grew his hair long (obviously nothing to do with being F, just a hippie thing!). We've talked about it and I know it made a big impact on my brother, growing up, that he always felt that he wasn't what Dad wanted him to be, that he was a let-down.

    My brother and I both often feel inadequate around other men because of our lack of 'handy' skills and/or interest in team sports, though our disinterest comes from different reasons - in my case, having been supposed to be a 'girl' and never taught those things, though I was interested, but discouraged.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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