T women & F men

[Wandering]

 

[Economica]

I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair. Personally, I get more out of a relationship with an F than a T. I need someone that balances me, not reinforces my natural preferences. T women just don't manage to evoke the same feelings in me than F women do. With an F woman, I feel we both have seperate strengths and function as a team. With a T woman, we have similar strengths and so there is the potential for competition. However, the last thing I want in a relationship is to start arguing with my partner about the logic of X or Y. And I want to trust my partner to help me with the emotional/relational side of things.

I'm curious, Maverick, what are you basing the bolded part on apart from extrapolation of your own preferences?

(Not questioning your logic so far, just determining what it is. )

Re the ENTP/INFJ pairing... I relate to what aelan says, my experiences of this both romantically and platonically is that ENTP seems to bring so much, but INFJ gives little in return but doe-eyed adoration and the occasional passive aggression when they feel slighted due to some insult that exists only in their head. But I wouldn't vouch for the healthiness levels of the INFJ's I've known though...

FYI we've got at least three ENTPs on the board (Blackwater, meanlittlechimp and The_Liquid_Laser) who are in happy relationships with INFJs. How about starting a thread about the allure of the pairing and asking them to contribute?

Here's a teaser:

Currently with INFJ.

Trust me guys (other ENTPs). It's the way to go, if you can catch one - do so. I can see how some of you might misjudge them, but they're not soft or prudish/bookish as some of the literature implies. If I told you everything, you wouldn't believe me (some of them really do have psychic powers - but hide them). It's best for you to find out on your own.

Keirsey was right on this one - believe me. Of course, there will always be exceptions, but there is no doubt in my mnd, that if one measured %chance of a successful relationship, (for an ENTP) - it would significantly dwarf most other pairings.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Gay, shmay. I'm more interested to know if there's a male INFX anywhere in the world who didn't at one time or another go through a goth or emo-slash-hipster phase.

I didn't. Reeks of affectation, plus I don't especially like the music. The Cure is too damn upbeat.

However, was I ever dark, moody, depressive, self-hating, self-destructive and contemptuous of the world? Yeah. Did I wear a lot of black while doing that? Sometimes, but it was never a criterion for wardrobe selection. Also, I always judged my darkness, moodiness, depression, self-hatred, self-destructiveness and contempt for the world as being somewhat ridiculous. Maybe that's part of why I never bought into the subculture. I still find goth girls kind of hot (the thin ones, anyway, which is maybe 10%).




As for the topic under discussion, let's not forget that in Shakespeare's day it was the men who were considered F (romantic/values-oriented) and the women who were considered T (pragmatic). The T = masculine paradigm has probably returned to dominance thanks to the age of reason.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Gay, shmay. I'm more interested to know if there's a male INFX anywhere in the world who didn't at one time or another go through a goth or emo-slash-hipster phase.

I haven't. I'm moody, but nowhere near emo or goth.

 

[LucrativeSid]

Concerning your other points, my personal preferences are just that - personal. They are not to be argued with. Also, there's not much point in arguing whether T (wo)men are better or not than F (wo)men in a relationship with a T or F. It's like arguing if "Blue" is better than "Red". It's all a question of taste.

Pefect. But if it's all a question of taste and it's no more complex than that, then why did you bother explaining the logic behind your reasoning? And if it's just personal, why did you say "I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair."? That makes it sound like you believe it's more than a matter of taste, and that you have some reasoning behind why you don't think double Ts and double Fs would make good relationships, even when you're not one of the people in the relationshiop.

I'm not trying to pick you apart, I'm just really curious. I like to study people. Your style of communication works great for me, because it's easy and fast and I automatically know that all objective statements are really subjective even if they are not stated that way, so I'm not easily hurt, conflicted, or thrown off by them. But there might be some people out there who don't take it the same way. I know a lot of what you said was from the personal point of view, but some of it wasn't.

Now this is just me, but sometimes sharing an opinion seems a lot like presenting a case! I think I do it a lot. Like I'm a lawyer or something...

 

[Economica]

Pefect. But if it's all a question of taste and it's no more complex than that, then why did you bother explaining the logic behind your reasoning? And if it's just personal, why did you say "I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair."? That makes it sound like you believe it's more than a matter of taste, and that you have some reasoning behind why you don't think double Ts and double Fs wouldn't make good relationships, even when you're not one of the people in the relationshiop.

Exactly. This is where I was going, but you did it better than I would have.

 

[Maverick]

Pefect. But if it's all a question of taste and it's no more complex than that, then why did you bother explaining the logic behind your reasoning? And if it's just personal, why did you say "I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair."? That makes it sound like you believe it's more than a matter of taste, and that you have some reasoning behind why you don't think double Ts and double Fs would make good relationships, even when you're not one of the people in the relationshiop.

I'm not trying to pick you apart, I'm just really curious. I like to study people. Your style of communication works great for me, because it's easy and fast and I automatically know that all objective statements are really subjective even if they are not stated that way, so I'm not easily hurt, conflicted, or thrown off by them. But there might be some people out there who don't take it the same way. I know a lot of what you said was from the personal point of view, but some of it wasn't.

Now this is just me, but sometimes sharing an opinion seems a lot like presenting a case! I think I do it a lot. Like I'm a lawyer or something...

It's impossible to determine for sure which option is best, because it ultimately depends on one's values. One person might value working on their weakness, another on their strengths, another on learning certain things from their partner, another from having a relationship with someone that is similar...

We can argue for hours and it will be impossible to determine which option is best. So, it all comes down to a matter of personal opinion. My personal opinion is that it is better to have complementary partners. The logic behind this opinion has been presented, but the more you will argue, the more you will arrive at personal assumptions and/or values. In the end, the discussion will arrive at a dead end. It is pointless arguing. The only thing we can do is share opinions.

We could also have had a discussion about music and I could have argued, seemingly logically, that X composer was better than Y composer for A reasons. I could then have asserted that listening to X composer is better. This is a personal opinion that I know has not a value of absolute truth. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - And if I think you're wrong and my way of doing it is better, I'm still entitled to saying it even if it concerns values that are impossible to demonstrate. You're then entitled to express that you don't agree. Differences of opinion are what make people interesting as it reflects their identity and beliefs.

I'm curious, Maverick, what are you basing the bolded part on apart from extrapolation of your own preferences?

(Not questioning your logic so far, just determining what it is. )

On observations of couples that have stood the test of time around me, and my own opinion that it is better to have someone that will cater for your weakness and that you can help with your own strengths.

 

[Economica]

On observations of couples that have stood the test of time around me, and my own opinion that it is better to have someone that will cater for your weakness and that you can help with your own strengths.

Ahh, so there is more to it than you've given the impression of so far. Which pairings do you know that have stood the test of time?

 

[Maverick]

Ahh, so there is more to it than you've given the impression of so far. Which pairings do you know that have stood the test of time?

Looking at couples that have been together for more than ten years and that still report that they are happy together and in love: INTJ/ESFJ, ISTP/ENFJ, ISFJ/ESTP, INTP/ENFP, ISFJ/ENTJ, ISTJ/ENTJ, ISTJ/ENFx, ISTJ/ISTJ, ...

 

[LucrativeSid]

I agree with everything you just said in that longer post, Maverick. I was more interested in the different ways that people communicate and share their ideas than the actual discussion. That's okay, though. I hate discussing things that I believe are painfully obvious to everyone so I'm done unless something fresh comes along.

 

[Economica]

Looking at couples that have been together for more than ten years and that still report that they are happy together and in love: INTJ/ESFJ, ISTP/ENFJ, ISFJ/ESTP, INTP/ENFP, ISFJ/ENTJ, ISTJ/ENTJ, ISTJ/ENFx, ISTJ/ISTJ, ...

Gah, I find myself wanting to see it to believe it*. Nothing personal, Maverick!

* "It" being not the 6-2 in favor of T/F complementarity (I'm all for it... for half the types anyway) but the happiness of especially the INTJ-ESFJ, ISTJ-ENTJ and ISTJ-ISTJ pairings.

 

[the state i am in]

locker room talk, male rituals, elbow nudging, posturing bullshit- not fun for a male f.

stupid sensor girl talk, blah blah twitter, etc, not fun for an nf male either.

istj dad wondering why the fuck you can't ever remember anything, notice any details, forget things, not fun for an infj male with no Si. or why you're so moody and hypersensitive to "good-natured" ribbing.

acting the part of the man/know-it-all decisiveness, aggressive, certain, taking charge, etc not really fun for an f male either.

Fe feels quite reactionary. it's so easy for inf males to get stuck wearing a really tight mask at all times in public. it kind of seems like a waste of a function sometimes. growing up i thought i'd rather have something i can use more freely, confidently, etc. i wanted to be more in control. more calculated. more masterful of my body, posture, expression, etc.

it's a weird spot on the margins of the gender discourse, for sure. my aesthetic tastes are VERY opposed to the caricature of american masculinity, yet i'm not gay. i'm just similarly opposed to the hypermasculine illiteracy country redneck focus-on-the-family slicked-back-hair b-school graduate bullshit that feels very locked-in to what the possibilities for successful masculinity can entail in america.

and it's weird the way it cuts across socio-economic dimensions too. my gender position makes me feel like i will always have this very real distance from teh working class. my position makes me so obviously not that, in any way shape form. it seems like a gender caricature in which i would find no possible connection. my posture, the way i sit, the way i speak, the way i dress, i just feel all of these aspects of marginality squeezing me out of populist anything. always more and more marginalized, like a contest. what purpose does it serve?

i fucking hate mick jagger!

it does feel somewhat androgynous. mix and match. my natural predilection is to be a mutant somewhere in between. i don't know if i will ever NOT be a boy, will ever make the transition to man, adulthood, etc. my gender identity will never become as regimented, codified, classically trained as this. it will always be too fluid, effeminate, effete, boyish, it's built into my body and my personality. it sounds like jonathan richman songs.

 

[Jeffster]

elbow nudging?

 

[the state i am in]

elbow nudging?

i'm chuckling.

for some reason i associate this really cheesy elbow nudging gesture with "good-natured ribbing." something similarly to "soooooo... didja bone her?" prying kind of male teasing.

 

[garbage]

Eh, it gives us an interesting niche in this world, at least.

 

[Bougal]

I grew up in a home with a disgruntled and fairly overbearing ESFJ mother. From a very young age, my brash style of communication made her explode emotionally, so I learned to avoid these out lashes by acting more passive, and superficially caring about other’s emotions, even though I have never seen them as being very valid. Because of this change, my true personality was fairly suppressed for a good portion of my childhood. I developed a façade of being a social ENFJ to soften my outspoken, opinionated tendencies. A couple of years ago I became a trial attorney for Mock Trial, and my true personality resurfaced, but I am in awkward state of being a natural ENTJ that has be nurtured to be a feeler.

I think that society’s expectations and stereotypes of femininity make life hard for most NT women, but even more so for an ENTJ women. When a man is an ENTJ, he is respected as a strong leader; when a woman is an ENTJ she is seen as being a domineering bitch. I must say, this stereo typing has always really bothered me but I am very comfortable in the person that I am and I am accepted for me.

 

[/DG/]

I hate how a lot of my friends want me to indulge in hugs and physical contact with them. Sometimes I try to hug back, but it's extremely awkward. I also hate talking about feelings, etc. One of my friends even said before, "You're not a very huggy person." No, I'm not, so quit hugging me. =P

But maybe that's just me. idk

Do any of you T girls hate physical contact to those who aren't family?

 

[juggernaut]

I cannot handle F males at all. I feel as if I might drown under all of their inner gooey-ness. I don't particularly like it in women either, but at least we can blame some of that on acculturation (and constantly fluctuating hormone levels). I know it makes me sound like a wretched beast, but the whole F thing really makes me feel like I'm going to suffocate. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's just so much chemical weirdness to me. If someone's feeling something, I want them to be able to lay it out for me in a reasonable way so I know what I'm supposed to do with it. Emotion without explanation pains me. Unless someone has died, and it better be someone important (not a goldfish), no tears! Moodiness is, likewise, intolerable.

 

[kyuuei]

^ Wow. Gotta love that prick factor.

 

[Eagle]

lol