T women & F men

[Kiddo]

INFJ-ENTP

I'd have to dig up an INFJ male from somewhere to try that one. I know they're supposed to be the best pairing for the ENTP. But from the comments here, INFJs sound kind of like some kind of dark, wounded, bushbaby, and as rare as a white truffle to boot. Am not certain a loopy, ENTP wouldn't wound them more and drive them nuts trying to close the myriad tangents actually, thereby reducing their endangered population even further.

Actually, if I am ever so lucky as to encounter an ENTP and get romantically involved with them, then I will probably marry them. That type absolutely amazes me because they can cut me to the quick, but they do it in such a way that makes me laugh instead of feel bad about myself. I really love how they will listen to your opinions and critique where your logic is faulty. And they are capable of understand intuitive ideas that seem baseless to INTPs. They are like the ultimate clarifiers for INFJs, whereas I think the INFJ would provide a constant enigma that would forever entertain an ENTP.

 

[redacted]

yeah entp girls are awesome. best/most intensely honest/intellectual relationship i've ever had.

 

[white]

Actually, if I am ever so lucky as to encounter an ENTP and get romantically involved with them, then I will probably marry them. That type absolutely amazes me because they can cut me to the quick, but they do it in such a way that makes me laugh instead of feel bad about myself. I really love how they will listen to your opinions and critique where your logic is faulty. And they are capable of understand intuitive ideas that seem baseless to INTPs. They are like the ultimate clarifiers for INFJs, whereas I think the INFJ would provide a constant enigma that would forever entertain an ENTP.

Curious, Kiddo. So what does the bushbaby bring to the ENTP? I could imagine myself constantly walking on glass if I were to be with an injured, cynical critter you know, and never quite sure how to read the INFJ. Is this the enigma you mean?

Right now I have this image of the ENTP in natural state, bubbling with ideas, but not sure to say them or not because the bushbaby could take it as a knife to their metaphorical fragile hearts, and then they twist it over and over by themselves and anything you say after that makes more daggers to them? I'm not sure whom'd be more damaged from that.

yeah entp girls are awesome. best/most intensely honest/intellectual relationship i've ever had.

ENTP girls are awesome. From a distance usually.

My friends thought so till I led everyone on a 21km hike and climb in the Laotian wilderness when I decided on a whim that 7km was walkable, but neglected to factor in the return trip, certain detours that I just had to explore, the 60 degree incline at certain sections and the fact that we were walking in slippers. I think the only reason I'm still around now is because they were too exhausted to lift a finger against me that night. I was banished to sleep on the floor though.

ENTPs can be hazardous to the health actually.

 

[Maverick]

I like T women as friends but would not want one in a relationship with me.

The problem is that more heterosexual women, whether Thinking or Feeling tend to be attracted to Thinking rather than Feeling men. And more heterosexual men, whether Thinking or Feeling tend to be attracted to Feeling rather than Thinking women. This is because heterosexuals tend to still be more attracted to what represents for them the archetype of the other gender regardless of their preference for T or F. In practice, heterosexuals who are counter-stereotypic on the T/F dimension tend to demand stereotypic behavior from the other gender but tend to not accept that the other gender demands stereotypic behavior from them. Note the relevance of this statement - this is a tendency, a generalization, and not a rule. Many people, also on this forum, do not behave this way.

But there generally is a problem of "double standards". Some Thinking women might want a man that is independent, confident and succesful. But they may feel disappointed that many men want someone that displays stereotypically feminine characteristics. Some Thinking women may say: "Can't they accept a woman that is independent, logical, and stands up to them?". To which I want to reply: "Can't you accept a man that is sensitive, empathic, and diplomatic?". This comment is valid for Feeling men in the other way round of course. Basically, they are complaining about a behavior (demanding stereotypic tendencies) which they themselves exhibit.

I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair. Personally, I get more out of a relationship with an F than a T. I need someone that balances me, not reinforces my natural preferences. T women just don't manage to evoke the same feelings in me than F women do. With an F woman, I feel we both have seperate strengths and function as a team. With a T woman, we have similar strengths and so there is the potential for competition. However, the last thing I want in a relationship is to start arguing with my partner about the logic of X or Y. And I want to trust my partner to help me with the emotional/relational side of things.

 

[white]

^^ Merry Christmas, Mav! I wanted to give you some green points, but you'd indicated a preference to be in the red, so I didn't sprinkle any on you.

Ok, back to the topic: the mofo makes sense as usual. Double standards. I'd guess the dating pool popularity poll is skewed towards ENTJ males and ENFP females IRL.

I think it is why many thinking females learn in time to tamper their thoughts and words and actions, much as I've done, simply. But as was observed, it is probably easier for T females to tamp down something they have, than for F males to gear up the aggression/assertiveness which does not exist much for them?

Having said that, I do find empathy, diplomacy and compassion (you don't mean sensitivity as boohoo clingwrap, do you?) in a person very attractive. Am likely to find that more attractive vs aggression actually, in a relationship. So probably true to the double F and double T relationships, though I'd think the N/S J/P combi matters a lot as well, if not equally.

I find aggressive males tiring to be with, actually, they constantly want to be somewhere, do something, win everything, against anyone. Even though you never were competing with them, they somehow see it as you are, and measure themselves by that. But I somehow seem to get these sorts - the image thing works against me here I'd guess

At the end of the day, I'd like more balance in relationships & life, so probably a thinking F fits better than a pure F or a pure T for me. Can't speak for other T women though.

 

[Kiddo]

Curious, Kiddo. So what does the bushbaby bring to the ENTP? I could imagine myself constantly walking on glass if I were to be with an injured, cynical critter you know, and never quite sure how to read the INFJ. Is this the enigma you mean?

Right now I have this image of the ENTP in natural state, bubbling with ideas, but not sure to say them or not because the bushbaby could take it as a knife to their metaphorical fragile hearts, and then they twist it over and over by themselves and anything you say after that makes more daggers to them? I'm not sure whom'd be more damaged from that.

But that is why I love ENTPs. They won't walk on glass for you. They are clever and shrewd. The greatest fear of the INFJ is unauthentic or deceptive people. But the ENTP is purely demonstrative of their intentions and thoughts. There is no wall between the two types. And as such, the kiddy gloves can come off of both players.

In addition to that, INFJs do the one thing ENTPs often can't. They think things through. That isn't to say that their goal is to shoot down ideas, but to make them better, or to make them doable. An INFJ will invest considerable energy into helping someone realize their ideas and dreams. Being able to help someone achieve their potential is the creed of the INFJ. And ENTPs are potential in its purest form.

 

[redacted]

Curious, Kiddo. So what does the bushbaby bring to the ENTP? I could imagine myself constantly walking on glass if I were to be with an injured, cynical critter you know, and never quite sure how to read the INFJ. Is this the enigma you mean?

Right now I have this image of the ENTP in natural state, bubbling with ideas, but not sure to say them or not because the bushbaby could take it as a knife to their metaphorical fragile hearts, and then they twist it over and over by themselves and anything you say after that makes more daggers to them? I'm not sure whom'd be more damaged from that.

why do you think INFJs are so fragile? i'm probably the 2nd least fragile person i know, next to my other male-INFJ friend.

my ex, the ENTP, puts on a strong/impenetrable face in public. and she even puts on a strong face to herself. but she's waaaaaay fragile -- and it's even worse, because she doesn't even know when she's hurt. it usually takes a few hours before she even realizes she's being too emotional.

i'd say INFJ fragility is conscious, therefore easier to control.

but yeah, the INFJ does have to be very accepting of the ENTP's ideas. i don't think that's too hard, though. ENTPs are awesome. they're like us INFJs, except much more likely to say their intuitions out loud.

ENTP -> Ne, Ti, Fe
INFJ -> Ni, Fe, Ti

very similar function breakdown, if you think about it.

My friends thought so till I led everyone on a 21km hike and climb in the Laotian wilderness when I decided on a whim that 7km was walkable, but neglected to factor in the return trip, certain detours that I just had to explore, the 60 degree incline at certain sections and the fact that we were walking in slippers. I think the only reason I'm still around now is because they were too exhausted to lift a finger against me that night. I was banished to sleep on the floor though.

ENTPs can be hazardous to the health actually.

the INFJ just has to be assertive. and that's the good thing about the ENTP/INFJ combo. INFJs use their Ni to "know" what the results of an ENTP's idea are going to be. and ENTPs get the INFJs off their lazy asses, wanting to test out some Ne idea they have.

 

[cafe]

IMO, INFJs can calibrate fairly well to the person they are interacting with. IOW, two people could say the same thing to me and I might be bothered by one person saying it and not the other because I know the communication styles of the person speaking.

My INTJ daughter can say things to me without upsetting me that would really bother me a lot if someone else said them. I know how she is and I know that she is just saying how she sees things. It's not meant to be insulting and it's nothing personal. It's just how she is. People that are normally more . . . tactful? and they say some of the stuff she does, I'd be up in arms, because they meant it.

 

[Kiddo]

INFJs use their Ni to "know" what the results of an ENTP's idea are going to be. and ENTPs get the INFJs off their lazy asses, wanting to test out some Ne idea they have.

Very well said.

 

[Wandering]

The problem is that more heterosexual women, whether Thinking or Feeling tend to be attracted to Thinking rather than Feeling men.

Eeeh, no way Jose Oh sure, I had my period when I wanted my very own Mr Spock, but I was like, 8 to 12 years old or something After that, it's been a Feeling man all the way.

I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair.

I'm an INFJ happily and productively married to an ENFJ so there

Personally, I get more out of a relationship with an F than a T. I need someone that balances me, not reinforces my natural preferences.

Heh, where you see "balance" I see "conflict", and where you see "reinforces my natural preferences" I see "naturally understands me"

And an ENxP? I'd go stark mad in half a day with all that Ne

 

[quietgirl]

Oh man, I love having a Fe type of boyfriend. Though, I can't say his type with any accuracy as he seems to test borderline on all of the letters, I've given up on the notion that he's a T type because Fe seems to spill out of him. Most likely, he's an ISFJ, INFJ, or an ENFJ.

I like that he understands me and does the sort of things that I would also do to show my love. There's no question about feelings in the relationship like I've had with most T types I've dated (and Fi types, whom I could never understand). He's certainly a GUY, acts like a GUY, and takes on the more male role in the relationship. He just tends to take care of me more than other guys have in the past and be a bit more perceptive about my feelings. He also expresses how he feels rather easily.

As for the comment somewhere that a T/T or F/F relationship couldn't work... my current relationship is the EASIEST and quite possibly the most functional relationship I have ever been in. There is certainly a spark between us (hell, we're both givers ), despite the possibility of being the same type, because we're individuals and have different levels of I, E, N, S, etc. If we are the same type, I feel he takes on more of the I & F and I take on more of the N & J so we balance out. We also have different development of cognitive functions, I'm sure, and we've had different childhood experiences that have molded us. If he's an ISFJ, then our different functions keep the spark going, I guess.

 

[LucrativeSid]

I don't think a double T or double F relationship would make for a good pair. Personally, I get more out of a relationship with an F than a T. I need someone that balances me, not reinforces my natural preferences. T women just don't manage to evoke the same feelings in me than F women do. With an F woman, I feel we both have seperate strengths and function as a team. With a T woman, we have similar strengths and so there is the potential for competition. However, the last thing I want in a relationship is to start arguing with my partner about the logic of X or Y. And I want to trust my partner to help me with the emotional/relational side of things.

I'm talking to everyone here, not just Maverick.

That sounds good in theory... but what about a couple of Ts who enjoy competition with each other, taking it lightly, and having loads of fun? And what about a couple of Ts who are both emotionally mature as well as being thought dominant? OR a couple of Fs that feel really comfortable with each other and understand each other better than anyone else in the world?

Your way of seeing things certainly works if you find the right woman, but it seems to be a bit limited to me. You don't want your partner to ever challenge your logic? LOL, why not? What's that going to hurt? Maybe she can help. Okay, I said challenge, but you said argue, so I won't put words in your mouth. Sorry about that. But why would it need to turn into an argument? You can either prove that you're position is best or you can allow her to make it better. Where's the negative in that?

And wanting to trust your partner to help with emotional/relational things is sweet, and it would be a blessing if you had a such a jewel, but you almost make it sound like you don't want to try to make improvement in that area on your own. You don't have to rely on her for that shit! She can help, but you make it sound like it's her job and that it's beneath you or too far away for yourself to grasp or something like that. (However, I do not make assumptions! I just follow my intuitive thoughts and see where they can go. Maybe the whole point of wanting an F woman is so that you can grow into being more F. Relationships and self growth go hand in hand.)

It seems like you like the idea of having clearly defined roles for the male and female so that they fit together perfectly to make a great team. That makes sense, and it's a very common occurrence. That's sort of been the tradition. But I think there's better, or at least more, options that also can lead to phenomenal relationships.

For example, two Ts can get along great if they are both trying to develop their emotions at the same time. They can learn from each other and tease each other about it. They can encourage each other, and at the same time be completely understanding of any emotional lack or fault, therefore no blame is place. Emotional demands and needs are low, yet they are still important enough to work with and analyze, but not important enough to get pissed about. In some cases, it might even be easier for the two hypothetical Ts to grow out from themselves and into the relationship because they understand each so well. Their conflicts are ones that can be settled through logic, unlike a deep T vs. F conflict where there is just no common ground at all.

I guess my main concern is that I wouldn't want people to count on their partner to make up for things they are not good at. They can help, but I think you should always try to be as much as you can by yourself. So maybe the wife cooks and you do the yard work and it's a great system, but why not switch and get good at the other side, too? Share the experiences together, have fun, and be prepared to make an excellent dinner for the wife after she's spent all day doing something crappy.

Maybe some people really like to stick to defined roles, I don't know. But it's not like a man would forget how to play football if he learned how to do something new. You can have it all. To me, two people striving to have it all in themselves makes a greater and more diverse pair than two people trying to fill in each others gaps.

Please, people, don't be offended if any part of that seemed way too obvious. I just think and talk too much.

And of course, Maverick said that T women just can't manage to evoke the same kind of feelings in him that F women do. So there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! If it's just a natural attraction thing, it's quite simple. I know I'm not at all attracted to masculine women, but T women, sure, it just depends on the woman.

 

[FDG]

Oh man, I love having a Fe type of boyfriend. Though, I can't say his type with any accuracy as he seems to test borderline on all of the letters, I've given up on the notion that he's a T type because Fe seems to spill out of him. Most likely, he's an ISFJ, INFJ, or an ENFJ.

I like that he understands me and does the sort of things that I would also do to show my love. There's no question about feelings in the relationship like I've had with most T types I've dated (and Fi types, whom I could never understand). He's certainly a GUY, acts like a GUY, and takes on the more male role in the relationship. He just tends to take care of me more than other guys have in the past and be a bit more perceptive about my feelings. He also expresses how he feels rather easily.

As for the comment somewhere that a T/T or F/F relationship couldn't work... my current relationship is the EASIEST and quite possibly the most functional relationship I have ever been in. There is certainly a spark between us (hell, we're both givers ), despite the possibility of being the same type, because we're individuals and have different levels of I, E, N, S, etc. If we are the same type, I feel he takes on more of the I & F and I take on more of the N & J so we balance out. We also have different development of cognitive functions, I'm sure, and we've had different childhood experiences that have molded us. If he's an ISFJ, then our different functions keep the spark going, I guess.

I don't think T males have problems with showing their feelings in a relationships, when they do have them. I certainly don't, I don't even have any problem initiating.

I just don't have feelings for a lot of people, and when I don't show them the reason is exactly because well, I don't have them!

 

[Maverick]

And of course, Maverick said that T women just can't manage to evoke the same kind of feelings in him that F women do. So there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! If it's just a natural attraction thing, it's quite simple. I know I'm not at all attracted to masculine women, but T women, sure, it just depends on the woman.

This is the point. You're either attracted or you aren't. My personal tastes have showed so far that I am not attracted to T women.

Concerning your other points, my personal preferences are just that - personal. They are not to be argued with. Also, there's not much point in arguing whether T (wo)men are better or not than F (wo)men in a relationship with a T or F. It's like arguing if "Blue" is better than "Red". It's all a question of taste.

I would tend to say that it's better to have partners in a relationship that balance each other's strengths. When they don't, there will be areas where none of the partners are proficient in that will remain undeveloped for both. The whole point is to have an exchange and continously learn from the other. Doing so enables you to play other "roles" too, since you can develop strengths which you did not have before. For example, I can teach "Te" to somebody with an "Fi" preference and vice-versa. Then, we can both start using more of the others' function. It actually allows greater flexibility in the long term. Of course, this is just an opinion and not a scientific fact. At the end of the day, there's no rule that fits everybody.

 

[Wandering]

I would tend to say that it's better to have partners in a relationship that balance each other's strengths.

No, it's not "better". It's just what *you* prefer. Ie: it's a subjective preference, not an objective fact.

When they don't, there will be areas where none of the partners are proficient in that will remain undeveloped for both.

So??

The whole point is to have an exchange and continously learn from the other.

Again: that may be the whole point *for you*, but it's not so for many others, like me for example. I don't want a teacher or student in my partner, I want a partner. Partners don't necessarily teach stuff to each other.

Doing so enables you to play other "roles" too, since you can develop strengths which you did not have before. For example, I can teach "Te" to somebody with an "Fi" preference and vice-versa.

Urgh The last thing I want in a partner is someone who deliberately tries to push me out of my comfort zone! I want my relationship to be primarily *comfortable*, not challenging or instructive or whatever (it will naturally be all those things anyway, all relationships are).

Of course, this is just an opinion and not a scientific fact. At the end of the day, there's no rule that fits everybody.

Agreed

 

[Maverick]

Doesn't agree with A because thinks X is lacking
Realizes X is present and agrees

So waddaya arguing about?

 

[runvardh]

Re confidence:

somehow guys put the pressure on themselves to be "better" than the girl they date, and they seem to have a habit of measuring their "worth" by what they can give to the girl. Ergo if the girl is more successful than them, they do feel a little threatened in some ways, because they view themselves as not being able to take care of them? At least, where I come from, that is the case.

I found age here does matter. I've dated guys 8 years younger, up to 13 years older than me. The dynamics work best when it is a guy at least 3 years older, or about 5 years younger. The former is usually more self-assured, has came to terms with his part in life mainly. Hence is more relaxed, worldly, and looking for a breath of fresh air and different ways of viewing things, without seeing it as a challenge to his masculinity. The latter is looking for someone who can open a different world to them out of the schoolroom.

I think very few guys are truly comfortable with an equal in a partner, simply. It makes them feel that they are not needed.

So these are the chief issues as a T female I've had to deal with - that while I can take care of myself*, I do want you. And while I may not be physically demonstrative and emotional, it does not mean I do not care. These are not easy to express.

I find my motivations for this are less need related and more to seeing them always with those others "up there". I am, however, getting better at taking up my equal as long as I can get a sense that I am wanted. I am also working on being better at detecting and understanding the signals; my issue right now is it takes quite a bit of communication to pick up enough of the pattern to recognize it.

Rescuing a damsel from the dragon trying to court her though is still too difficult especially without enough time to work out the pattern. This is why I prefer to meet potential partners through regular groups of social interaction or common interest. It gives me more exposure to the ladies and helps me to work out the pattern over time instead of having to panic over snap decisions.

That's right, guys who think like me can be found on boards like these and small interest/social groups. We don't make it easy, but it's about as intentional as how difficult you girls are to get at.

 

[substitute]

I don't think T males have problems with showing their feelings in a relationships, when they do have them. I certainly don't, I don't even have any problem initiating.

I just don't have feelings for a lot of people, and when I don't show them the reason is exactly because well, I don't have them!

Yes, this is something I've learned all the more profoundly since I began receiving testosterone treatment. It's one of the effects of testosterone that men's feelings are generally less diverse and harder to trigger. Whilst female emotions could be described as a three dimensional spectrum full of a million colours that blend into each other in a million ways, and all you have to do is shine a light through a prism and they come right out... male emotions tend to be different. More like a regular two-dimensional spectrum that you paint on a canvas, with fewer colours that bleed into each other in a smaller number of combinations, and are visible in much more black-and-white circumstances: either the light's on and you see the painting, or it's dark and you don't.

One of the most frustrating things for me to see because of my experiences, are those arguments between men and women where typically the woman wants the man to express his feelings, but he says he doesn't have any to express. She doesn't believe him, finding that incomprehensible, and keeps pressing him, taking it personally that he "won't share", interpreting it in all kinds of crazy ways until the guy does begin to have feelings: he's annoyed and resentful of her now.

So, if a man is talking in a forest and there's no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

Re the ENTP/INFJ pairing... I relate to what aelan says, my experiences of this both romantically and platonically is that ENTP seems to bring so much, but INFJ gives little in return but doe-eyed adoration and the occasional passive aggression when they feel slighted due to some insult that exists only in their head. But I wouldn't vouch for the healthiness levels of the INFJ's I've known though... There definitely was a feeling of walking on eggshells all the time, and frustration at constantly having them 'read' me - INCORRECTLY - but so sure they were right. One in particular did that an awful lot - come up and tell me how I feel, completely wrong, but refusing to listen to me or believe me when I say so and putting it down to me being "in denial"!!

 

[Wandering]

So waddaya arguing about?

The *way* you say A

 

[Maverick]

The *way* you say A

The way you perceive that I say A