T women & F men

[substitute]

Reading PinkPiranha's blog about her INFJ father, and what a nightmare he can be made me realize that I really can't picture what an INFJ guy would be like - it seems to me one of the most quintessentially feminine types, and I don't know how a guy would cope with those tendencies in a society that wants him to be ESTx

Similarly, I've a friend with an ENTJ daughter who finds it extremely hard adjusting to a society that wants her to be a Feeler.

There obviously are Feeling men and Thinking women on this board and in the world generally. I've heard runvardh alluding to the difficulties he has being Fi dominant and yet living in a society that expects men to shut up and bottle up their feelings. I've also heard whatever mention that being a Thinking woman can sometimes have her labelled a 'bitch' or seen as 'too assertive'.

I've always been an ENTP - albeit that in years gone by I was a very shy and unconfident one that might've come across more like INTP. But I've lived in both genders. I've had years of people criticizing me and condemning me as a female for qualities I possessed which, now that the world sees me as male, I get little but praise or affection for. And vice versa!!

I know there is a huge double standard - everyone knows this. What I want though here, is to give Thinking women and Feeling men an opportunity to share their experiences, and also anyone else who is close to anyone of that description. Maybe you have some stories to tell too about how they find things difficult, or maybe you have some questions about how you could sympathize with them better, which could be answered here.

I know it's a bit close to Christmas and maybe people aren't up for an in-depth sorta thread... but if not we can always resurrect it in the New Year

 

[miss fortune]

I'm a T female who always has tended to date F men! we've always joked that I'm the man in the relationship and they're the women! Nothing like having to hug your boyfriend to console him at the end of The Notebook, which he MADE me watch! *sigh* of course my male friends always call me a cool dude in a chick's body because I like sports, beer and getting in pointless contests to prove our manliness! I've even been told by a guy, "you know what? you're really cool and such, but it would feel really wrong to date you- I mean, not physically, but mentally- you're like a brother to me" :horor: eeek!

Of course my good ESFJ male friend gets made fun of by his friends for ironing his clothes and crying at lots of things (funny- he's a military man) and gets told by girls that they feel safe with him since he's not a threat to them and such

I guess it would be easier to switch personalities!

 

[substitute]

That's pretty funny whatever, though it echoes some of my own experiences whilst living as a female... the idea that guys see you as great fun but not dating material. I was complimented by it because I was more interested in girls in that way, but how does it make you feel?

There's also the annoying thing of being T female/F male often being equated with homosexuality. I find this quite annoying... I wouldn't think of Carebear or runvardh as camp or anything, but they both so are Feelers. But the whole "women feel safe with them" thing... that could get annoying too, like the male equivalent of what you described: they just want to cry on their shoulders and talk to them, but don't see them as potential nookie!

edit - oh, and of course, having learned a lot of 'F' from being forced to live the larger portion of my life so far as a female, I of course get it thrown at me that my identity is not valid because I'm not 'masculine' enough - that is, stereotypically masculine. I've had people seriously look at me and suggest that I might not really have a male mind because I don't care about and can't play football...

It could all be pretty insulting and upsetting... anyone add to that?

 

[miss fortune]

I've gotten told, you're a fun fling, but dating you would be like dating my friend Bob! (and now we see where my purity test score comes from! ) It's kind of depressing I'm obviously a chick if you look at me! (of course, I'm attracted to EVERYONE- so this is confusing for people to understand in itself! ) I've always had more luck dating FJs because they were a nice complement to me being me I guess? *shrug* Oh well, I survive still I guess- it would be easier to be an F though!

 

[cascadeco]

I know a male INFJ. He is a coworker of mine. Before he took the mbti test, I would have guessed he was a T, but after I sent him a link to the test and he took it and came out INFJ, the dots connected and I could totally see it.

He is very opinionated, is pretty cynical, and is highly sensitive and emotional once you get to know him, and will speak his mind to those he trusts; but in work situations he is very businesslike, matter-of-fact, and direct. To those who don't know him, or at initial meeting, he could easily come across as rather cold and abrasive. He also happens to be gay; I don't know how much that comes into play either, if at all. He has told me that as a teenager and in his early 20's, he was rather a troublemaker, was into more of the goth scene, and went through a big partying/self-destructive phase before he straightened out (as he puts it - not my words!).

One of my INFJ friends has told me about her coworker who is a bachelor in his early 50's. She tells me she's the only one in the entire office who really 'gets' him (and she says it's because he's a male version of herself - albeit an unbalanced, 'unhealthier' one), and everyone else is kind of turned off by him. She tells me he is pretty emotional/combustible, but he just displays very negative emotions -- more of the cranky, bitter, outwardly cynical/unpleasant sort of character that people tend to shy away from. But because she sees something beneath this rough/cynical exterior, she has gotten to know more who is underneath. When she described all of this, a light bulb went off in my head, because it made me recall a former male coworker who was exceedingly unpleasant to be around - just really moody, and usually negative emotions, and you kind of walked around eggshells with him, or were 'scared' to talk to him because you didn't know what mood he'd be in that day - would he be condescending/harsh/volatile, or upbeat and trying to be optimistic and pleasant and engaging? He was just...combustive?...and put up a really harsh/callous front most of the time...but I now strongly suspect he was a male F. I mean, maybe not, but it just got me to thinking.

 

[substitute]

those are good points cascademn... would it be more difficult for a Feeling male to be a healthier version of his type, because society doesn't help him to develop his natural inclinations but rather, condemns them and forces him to suppress them?

Also, this brings to mind for me the thing I learned when transitioning, which is that in society there are far more 'ways' to be female than there are to be male. There is considerably broader scope for a girl to wear trousers and go skateboarding and stuff without anyone doubting her femininity (they might joke about it, even cruelly, but they don't really mean it and totally see her as female) - this I learned when I came to transition and so many people refused point blank to try to see me as a male, even though all my time of knowing them I had so totally never been right as a female.

Meanwhile, for men, all it takes is a bit of nail polish and everyone's doubting his sexuality and gender, and if he tells people he's gay or wants to transition to become a woman, people are like "Oh that figures, he always was a big girl!"

...following on from which, makes me think that perhaps a T woman could have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type, than an F man?

 

[alcea rosea]

I know one ESTJ female who really has difficult time with her being T. She is one of the older generations so when she was young, girls were not allowed to be as T as these days (I would think so).

When I first met her I thought that she is ESFJ because she looked so friendly towards people. Her emotional reactions were a bit too strong in different occasions and I started to wonder why I did not have any emotional response to her feelings. (This is because when a person is going through a emotion, I can feel it in my own "guts". So, when somebody is sad, I feel like I have to comfort them. I never had this feeling with her.) It took a lot of time before I realized that she was faking her emotional responses! That was the reason why I NEVER reacted to her emotions even if I ALWAYS react on other peoples emotions.

I think she had learned from early on to hide her T side and she really tries to act like F. She is not F and she will never be F. I think it's sad that she does not approve herself and that she tries to be something that she is not.

Another example.
My ex boss at work was slightly younger female as I am. She is ENTJ. She is very in touch with herself and she does not try to be F. She is very efficient and has this charisma and authority that I have very rarely seen. Even the older men listen to her and totally respect her at work. And those men really do not usually listen to women's opinion (I’m talking about technology related things at work). So, my ex-boss is excellent example of extremely well balanced ENTJ and good example how a woman can still do fine with being T if she only accepts herself (and maybe has very understanding parents who let her be what she needs to be.) .

 

[cascadeco]

those are good points cascademn... would it be more difficult for a Feeling male to be a healthier version of his type, because society doesn't help him to develop his natural inclinations but rather, condemns them and forces him to suppress them?

...following on from which, makes me think that perhaps a T woman could have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type, than an F man?

I wouldn't really know, but it seems very plausible to me that a T woman would have a better chance of being a healthy one of her type than an F man, due to cultural and role expectations. I don't know enough F men though. The only other F male I know is an ENFP, and he seems pretty healthy to me. Edit: oops!! I know an INFP male too, and I'd say he's very healthy.

The two ENTJ women I know *thrive* in the working world, and are also really goal-oriented and on top of things in their personal lives. They are a force to be reckoned with. However, in their personal lives, they both tend to have more issues with romantic relationships, for various reasons. One of these two I consider unhealthy though, but due to things outside of mbti, and having very little to do with the F/T thing, that I don't want to go into here.

And the one EnTJ woman I know seems to be pretty healthy overall as well, and aside from a few interpersonal issues at times, she's very balanced, well-liked, friendly, and pleasant.

 

[Economica]

I've also heard whatever mention that being a Thinking woman can sometimes have her labelled a 'bitch' or seen as 'too assertive'.

Looking back (in my admittedly mentally incapacitated state (I'm sick )), I can't remember suffering for being a Thinker while growing up.

My parents are both TJs like me (mother=INTJ, father=ISTJ) so I never felt pressured by them to be different.

I know my insensitivity (and inflexibility) got on my middle school best friend's (ENFP) nerves. She'd get hurt by (or exasperated with) me, switch to hanging out with various other friends and then come back to me when she was ready to put up with me again - which was too soon for me to learn from my mistakes.

I've just been informed that it's time for bed! I'll continue this post tomorrow.

 

[substitute]

Okay Economica, sleep tight! But for when you next drop by... your parents being both quite similar to you must've made a big difference.

How much would the parents' types affect a person's chance of being healthy, particularly in cases like these? Presumably an ESFJ/ESTJ pairing as mom and dad respectively would find it very difficult to accept, say, an INTP daughter or an INFJ son... do you think?

I'm thinking now of my ISTP dad and his very stormy relationship with my ENFP brother. Dad was pretty old school and had visions of his 'only' (as he thought!) son following in his footsteps. He wanted to teach him all the manly arts of mechanics and carpentry and stuff, but my brother just wanted to read 19th century novels and write poetry. Dad used to call him effeminate because he grew his hair long (obviously nothing to do with being F, just a hippie thing!). We've talked about it and I know it made a big impact on my brother, growing up, that he always felt that he wasn't what Dad wanted him to be, that he was a let-down.

My brother and I both often feel inadequate around other men because of our lack of 'handy' skills and/or interest in team sports, though our disinterest comes from different reasons - in my case, having been supposed to be a 'girl' and never taught those things, though I was interested, but discouraged.

 

[cascadeco]

How much would the parents' types affect a person's chance of being healthy, particularly in cases like these? Presumably an ESFJ/ESTJ pairing as mom and dad respectively would find it very difficult to accept, say, an INTP daughter or an INFJ son... do you think?

I think ones upbringing and parents (or parental role models if the actual parents don't form much of a bond w/ the children or their presence in any sense is lacking) can play a huge role in ones' self-image and 'starting point', if you will, in terms of healthiness. So yeah, I think a T father - particularly TJ or STJ, would have a harder time relating to an F son. And an F mother would have a harder time relating to a T daughter. But that probably can go more general too -- T parent not relating so much to F child, F parent not relating so much to T child - regardless of gender.

I'm presumably an INFJ, and my brother is an INTP. So it's the reverse of your example so it doesn't apply so much. But I'll mention my parents anyway.

My mom is definitely an ISTJ, and I was never quite sure about my Dad - I lately have been considering him an IxTJ. However, I just consulted with my brother, and we both agreed he's rather different from Mom in several ways, and after my brother read the INTJ description, he said, 'That's Dad...but I think Dad's just learned not to express his opinions about things.'

Mom has had difficulty in general understanding my brother and I, and is perhaps the most difficult to have positive interactions with - there are just lots of potential areas of misunderstanding. My Dad is more of an interesting case; his father was a hardcore INTJ, and many of his INTJ traits shone through his entire life and he kind of rode his family hard; so my Dad I think has consciously made an effort to not be so much like his father. (no offense to any INTJ's out there, by the way - incidentally, I held great respect for my grandfather as a child, it's just I would not have wanted to be his wife or child. But also, it was a vastly different generation too, so there's that).

So anyway, I'm babbling, but yes -- parents have a profound influence on their children. I don't think I myself was terribly healthy for a while, and had a lot of identity/confidence issues, and still probably do to a certain extent -- just not nearly so much as I used to. My brother was also extremely unhealthy for a period; at age 19, he was actually in a hospital for about 6 weeks because he was suicidal, and was in therapy and on meds for several yrs after that, but appears to be doing MUCH better now. Regarding my brother, who really knows. Was it family dynamics? Was it his own thing? Was it more of a chemical imbalance? It's anyone's guess.

 

[miss fortune]

My parents are both introverts and got stuck with my sis and I as thier kids! an isfj and intp with 2 extroverted sp kids! we got bored a lot growing up on the farm because we lived IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE and my parents never saw any need to do anything any more social than visit my grandparents once a week and go to church on Sunday morning- going to school was a BLESSING!

My parents raised us to be gender neutral kind of- I can cook and dress and make myself up properly, but I can also change my oil filter, split wood and reshingle a house!

umm.. yeah- that probably explains a lot of things! they STILL can't figure out why I never stay at home for more than a day or two (because it's so far in the middle of nowhere that I get bored out of my skull) or WHY I enjoy going to parties (they don't know the details!)- actually, my mom is judgemental enough that my parents know absolutley nothing about my life! I suppose I've been a bit wild in my past purely to make up for the fact that I had NOTHING to do as a kid!

 

[Kiddo]

I'm INFJ and male. My childhood was hell. I cried too easily and my emotions could be manipulated by my peers for fun. I was teased, taunted, hazed, bullied, and outright abused by people who felt they could toughen me up. They succeeded, but not in the way they envisioned. I became resistant, passive-aggressive, borderline neurotic, and nobody could touch the real me. And it worked well until I met an ENTJ woman. And over just a few months she broke me into a thousand pieces. And it took a long while, but I was able to rebuild myself.

I'm happy I am who I am and that I have had the experiences I have had. Being sensitive, nurturing, and empathetic is nothing to be ashamed of as a male. I'm bisexual and love being able to be intimate with both sexes. Being an F male makes me feel very androgynous and complete as a person. It has its problems and defects, but what is life without challenges?

 

[INTJMom]

I think the new manager over at my local Radio Shack is an INFJ. He seems really quiet and nice.

The other day I returned a Magellan GPS system because my father had already bought my husband a GPS gadget and I didn't know. When I told the manager that the reason I was returning it is because we were getting a Garmin instead, he practically went ballistic. Seriously, I don't think he would have (certainly shouldn't have) said those things to any other customer, but I'm a special case because I am friendly with everyone there, and I may be working there soon.

Anyway, from what I have learned here, the F can be really passionate. So, I asked him, is this is a pet peeve of yours, and he admitted it was.

I don't know for sure if he's an F. He's just not as "cold" as a "T" usually seems.

I love "F" guys. I think they're wonderful.

 

[Varelse]

Someone made comments to me today about not seeming female...questioning that I was because I out-geeked him at something. I was not pleased.

 

[Athenian200]

Someone made comments to me today about not seeming female...questioning that I was because I out-geeked him at something. I was not pleased.

Actually, I think most women are smarter than men give them credit for being. There are a lot of people who often pretend not to know something they actually know to allow the other person to feel better about their intelligence... sometimes even convincing the person that they're a good teacher. I think he was just angry that you were smarter than he was, and he wanted to get back at you for making him feel inferior to you intellectually.

There are also men who don't really know what they're talking about, but give a really technical-sounding or general answer using circular reasoning that makes them sound smarter than they really are.

 

[scantilyclad]

I dated an INFJ male for 4 years. To people who didn't really know him he seemed cold and very withdrawn, he might of even come off as a T at times. When i first met him i thought he was a T because he often said cold sarcastic things that i would expect to hear from an INTP. He was actually very emotional,caring,opinionated and a bit helpless. He really needed someone to be there for him and take care of him and to this day still the only guy i've ever seen cry.sometimes he was even moodier than i am, which he often blamed on his blood sugar.

 

[Maverick]

There are a lot of people who often pretend not to know something they actually know to allow the other person to feel better about their intelligence... sometimes even convincing the person that they're a good teacher.

It's an action that is tactically good but strategically weak. In the long term, you risk losing the person's trust because eventually s/he will realize the deception. So it's not really smart, isn't it?

 

[redacted]

i'm a male INFJ.

basically, i learned how to suppress emotions early...and i got really into meditation when i was like 10 or 11 for a few months, so i'd be able to acknowledge my emotions without feeling them.

but i was too self controlled (because i was so aware of all of the possible ways each of my actions could be interpreted). i've grown into myself more, and i keep my guard down most of the time now (which is a good thing!).

it's interesting, though, pretty much all of my best friends are female (and my best male friend is INFJ). i feel less pressure from females to exhibit stereotypically "masculine" traits (Te-ish stuff). and i seem to be the only guy i know who hangs out with mostly girls that isn't gay and doesn't act gay for some reason...

by the way, though, i don't think F males are necessarily more emotional than T males. and in some ways, being feeling oriented (esp. Fi) can be helpful if you're trying to appear "tough" or "masculine" or whatever -- you can notice your own feelings and deal with them as they come instead of letting them build up until you blow up and get super-emotional. although i guess you could blow up in a masculine way, and probably would if you were Te dominant. hmm. i dunno, i'm just thinking of my INTJ friend who definitely got made fun of for being too emotional 89324783278x more than i did. well, i never did, i guess. hmm.


edit:

oh yeah, and i dated an ENTP girl for about a year and a half. she's really good socially; almost everyone loves her (at first), but she has a habit of starting debates (and winning), which not everyone takes so lightly. it's a funny thing about her; she looks very feminine and small, but wow she has a mouth.

i think it's hard for her, though. no one can really understand her NeTi point of view. and i'm sometimes taken aback by her lack of empathy. it was actually part of the reason we broke up.

interesting relationship dynamics, though!

 

[Kiddo]

i think it's hard for her, though. no one can really understand her NeTi point of view. and i'm sometimes taken aback by her lack of empathy. it was actually part of the reason we broke up.

Yeah, I broke up with an INTJ for largely the same reason. He would never even wait for me when we were walking anywhere and he would make remarks about what he felt was unattractive about me. Fine qualities in a friend, but they destroyed what chemistry I had with him.

I think respect for other's feelings is an essential trait and it amazes me how much some T types can lack it.