User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 89

Thread: T women & F men

  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    oh feel free to argue, I was just proposing a theory as it developed from the responses so far... bat stuff around freely

    ...though I think there's a good point about F women being bitchy too. Maybe it's not actually coldness then that they're not liking (perhaps) about a T woman, but in the absence of anything else to call it, that's what they go for? Personally I tend to associate bitchiness with F types... I've known T types, both male and female, to say bitchy remarks now and then but usually only under extreme pressure. I've not really known any Thinkers to engage in bitchy behaviour, especially the group bitching that you get with female bullying groups (stereotype cheerleaders?)... perhaps just not having the skill with both their own emotions and other people's, they don't bother using/manipulating them?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #32
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    827 sp/so
    Posts
    20,122

    Default

    True- F women are much more likely to be bitchy from my experience! and they usually know exactly what evil and sadistic thing to say to really insult you good! If I'm bitchy it's usually out of lack of forethought before speaking! And the T women I know don't sulk and hold grudges and such like the F women I know do!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #33
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    that's got me thinking... I remember when I used to live as a female and would often be accused of bitchy remarks. If I had made any, I'd have known and owned up to it and openly said so, but I was baffled about what they could've meant. It'd often turn out later that it was just my T type obliviousness (plus a dose of immaturity) to how some of the things I said could be taken. I was just being a plain-speaking, cards-on-the-table ENTP as usual - but the kinds of remarks that I still now make (though less frequently) as a man, which now if they turn out to be ill-conceived, tend to be put down to just 'male uselessness' or 'typical tactless men!' and people let it go and stuff? Well, I used to get tarred and feathered for that as a female!

    Perhaps F women might find it difficult to understand a T woman, and assume that the things they say come from the same sorts of motives, and assumptions, that F people share... not expecting or understanding that the T woman doesn't share those things, and therefore has a totally different motivation behind her "bitchy" remarks.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #34
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEI
    Posts
    8,559

    Default

    My story is all over the board and I suppose I should leave room for someone who hasn't done the silly stuff, because as much as I didn't try for it coming out of highschool I did go through a goth phase. Oh well...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #35
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Don't despair. I think INTJs can be taught empathy but they have to experience being put in someone else's shoes for it to sink in, I think.
    Oh, I'm not despairing, don't worry After all, INTJs do have Fi as their Tertiary, and it's pretty well developed in our son, as you could expect since he's being raised by two Feelers In fact, I used to think he was probably INFJ, among other reasons precisely because he's so Feely around us, his family. It's when he started going to kindergarten that I noticed something was off. For a long while, I couldn't reconcile his open Feeliness at home with his rather obvious lack of Feeling when around "strangers". And then one day I realised that the answer could be as simple as having a Tertiary Fi. So I know that the empathy is there, not as developed as in his father or I, and of the Introverted kind rather than Extraverted like we have it, but still it's there, and he's been practicing it ever since he was a baby, so I'm not worried.

  6. #36
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    eNFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/so
    Socionics
    eNFJ Ni
    Posts
    11,443

    Default

    I was firmly told to be less F and more T, and I'm a girl, so I can only imagine the pressure on a male F.

    Very beautiful smart ENTJ best friend has a lot of trouble with men seeing her as aggressive or too male in her energy.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  7. #37
    Wild Card Atomic Fiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    873 sx/so
    Socionics
    SLE Ti
    Posts
    7,164

    Default

    I defend myself from the pressure through sarcasm and caustic remarks, as in real life I find I'm a lot more intelligent then any of the STJs/STPs I've been in contact with IRL. They have no clue about how nice I am to people when there not judging.

    Also I know a variety of Male Feeling types, ESFPs, ESFJs, an INFP, and my best friend is an ENFP. The most crap they get is being called whiny, or in my best bros case, overreacting to small things.

  8. #38
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Gay, shmay. I'm more interested to know if there's a male INFX anywhere in the world who didn't at one time or another go through a goth or emo-slash-hipster phase.
    i definitely didn't. i think it's because i didn't want to be viewed as "one of those". i've always worn clothes that attract the least attention possible, based on the trends of my peers (i don't always follow the trends, though; i basically wear whatever's comfortable as long as it's not out there at all.)

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Ah! So that explains why my youngest son gets along so well with girls!

    He's a 14 year old ENFJ and he has always played better with the girls than with the boys. I just thought it was because he's so verbal and likes to read... not the typical rough and tumble boy like his ISTP brother.

    He does have some friends who are boys but they are also very verbal and somewhat intellectual.
    yeah, my male friends are all extreme intellectuals, too. but i actually didn't hang out with many girls until later on in high school/college. i switched off between the nerdy guys and the stoner guys, until later in high school when my nerdy friends became stoners too, lol.

    btw, weed was probably one of my top coping mechanisms for dealing with my feelings (since 14 when i started). it allowed me to see my feelings without feeling them. it was obviously a hindrance to my emotional development, but it made me so comfortable that i didn't care about the long-term (i knew it was bad what i was doing).

    then my (first ever) girlfriend died randomly of an allergic reaction when i was 17, and i was pretty much stoned every second until i was almost 21 (last fall). i took 7 months off at that point, did some MAJOR growing (which i had been doing slowly but surely all along anyways). and now, finally, i'm comfortable being a male F!

    but yeah, it's been a tough ride.

  9. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    837

    Default

    I've never thought that T was a masculine trait and that F was a feminine trait. I think there's a lot more to it than that. T women can be very feminine and F men can be very masculine. One of my best friends, who I believe to be an ESFP, is very masculine, even though he's also very emotional. If you hurt his feelings by insulting him, he's likely to show you his testosterone by being aggressive and perhaps wanting to fight you on the spot, or at least cutting you down with words trying to destroy you and make you look like a fool. With T and F only being judging functions, it's how you use them that detemermines whether your more masculine or feminine. My friend has no problem keeping up and competing with the manliest men, and he gets more chicks than anybody I know. He's also very open about his feelings with friends, never afraid to express how he feels, whether it's with another male or female. Nobody would dare to call him a sissy. Everybody loves him, and he really cares for people (unless they attack his ego.) He also tells me a lot that I'm his best and most loyal friend and that he would do anything for me. He's certainly a lot different than me - he holds too much anger against the things that he doesn't like and he shows tons of appreciation for the things he does like. Very expressive, unlike me, where you'd barely be able to tell if I liked somebody a lot of I didn't like them at all unless I decide that it's worth doing something about. I'm a lot calmer and in control than he is.

    My gf, with dominant Te, is not quite a typical female, but compared to me, she is extremely feminine.

    I don't think much of masculinity or femininity, to me it's more about maturity. Men and women both have good traits and bad traits, and as they mature, they cut down on the bad ones that they have and adopt the good ones from the opposite sex. Being extreme in any direction can cause trouble, especially if you're younger and happen to be an F male or T female.

    My question is: What other factors are at play here? I think there's a bit more than T and F.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #40
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    2,590

    Default

    Lots of interesting points, *long post warning*:

    Re: Thinking women = "cold, unfeminine bitches" and F men = "crybabies/emotionally needy"

    Convenient stereotypes we use to "classify" people. They negate the fact that thought and feeling cannot be divorced from each other that simply IRL.

    I doubt many of us make decisions based on pure thought or pure feeling alone - a balanced decision (vs a snap judgement) requires hard and soft considerations? And the stereotypes are merely that, snap judgements.

    Re: cold bitchiness of T persons

    I'd rather look to the motives and attitudes of each individual before calling a person bitchy? As whatever says, it is likely an F person could be bitchier than a T person (whether male or female, I argue that some males are bitchier than females ) - bitchiness is hitting a person where it hurts; and a Feeler is better able to intuite that.

    I'd say they get away with it better than Thinkers because they'd hide it behind a veil of smiles and touches, while a Thinker is likely to just come out and say something cutting, out of honesty vs intent to hurt another. The T way is mistaken for bitchiness, but the F way is usually accepted as "oh, it is for your own good, I care about you, that's why I say it! *smile smile hug hug*".

    Am not certain Thinking women are colder - I'd say they care as deeply, but perhaps may not express it as physically and as immediately as an F female?

    But if we're not loved in the ways we desire, we do not regard that as love, do we.

    The same way an F guy is frequently highly thoughtful and logical, but it isn't expressed in the normal way we're used to, so we pick on the differences and label them.


    INFJ-ENTP


    I'd have to dig up an INFJ male from somewhere to try that one. I know they're supposed to be the best pairing for the ENTP. But from the comments here, INFJs sound kind of like some kind of dark, wounded, bushbaby, and as rare as a white truffle to boot. Am not certain a loopy ENTP wouldn't wound them more and drive them nuts trying to close the myriad tangents actually, thereby reducing their endangered population even further.

    Re: ENTP females having it easier:
    Is it because a strong Ne intuition gives an understanding that resembles feeling? Also, Fe is tertiary, so a more mature "switched on" ENTP could be "warmer" hence more acceptable?

    Having said that, I've been at the receiving end of a lot of comments through the years, about being "too intelligent, too successful, too driven"; "cannot measure up to your standards" - makes me feel that I've to apologize for being successful / intelligent / popular, when it took a lot of hard work to build up my life to the way it is now.

    What I took from all of it, was to be less upfront with my thoughts, to listen more, speak less. Slow down. And to pick my battles more wisely - I'm not aggressive by nature, so it tires me to compete in any sense of the word. To only demonstrate intelligence to whom it matters to. And to show that I care more. I'd be a nervous wreck if I'd heeded all of these feedback. As is, the adaptation to be more digestible takes a lot out of me everyday.

    Re: image thing Sub was alluding to:

    My trouble here is more the opposite of whatever - I'm utterly useless with directions, any kind of sports that requires hitting/kicking/throwing any object etc. I'm usually in dresses and heels, into dance, conversations, books and travelling. Glide through most social situations like a soap bubble on soda pop?

    So I get ego-laden freaks who want a target dolly to prance around with, while the good, normal guys are thinking "she is with all those guys, has so many people around, she won't look at me", when I'm in reality emitting distress signals.


    Re confidence:

    somehow guys put the pressure on themselves to be "better" than the girl they date, and they seem to have a habit of measuring their "worth" by what they can give to the girl. Ergo if the girl is more successful than them, they do feel a little threatened in some ways, because they view themselves as not being able to take care of them? At least, where I come from, that is the case.

    I found age here does matter. I've dated guys 8 years younger, up to 13 years older than me. The dynamics work best when it is a guy at least 3 years older, or about 5 years younger. The former is usually more self-assured, has came to terms with his part in life mainly. Hence is more relaxed, worldly, and looking for a breath of fresh air and different ways of viewing things, without seeing it as a challenge to his masculinity. The latter is looking for someone who can open a different world to them out of the schoolroom.

    I think very few guys are truly comfortable with an equal in a partner, simply. It makes them feel that they are not needed.

    So these are the chief issues as a T female I've had to deal with - that while I can take care of myself*, I do want you. And while I may not be physically demonstrative and emotional, it does not mean I do not care. These are not easy to express.

    * Edit: As long as this doesn't include having to read a map, drive, and play any kind of game involving balls and bats.

    Edit 2: The last sounds wrong but I'm not able to phrase it better.
    Last edited by white; 12-25-2007 at 05:22 AM. Reason: codas

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO