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  1. #1
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    Default ENTJ and INFP intuitive debate on religion

    I had the God conversation with my ENTJ boyfriend which was really interesting. It seems ENTJ's generally approach religion rationally, and INFPs generally approach religion through feeling-- but the thing they both have in common is a strong intuition. So what do you INFPs and ENTJs think about God and Religion?

    I feel that religion is used as a machine of manipulation like my ENTJ boyfriend, but I think there is a creator, or creative impulse which we are part of.

    When ENTJ declares I AM GOD (in true entj fashion), I think we're basically on to the same thing (lol).

    The point of disagreement came at the idea of what happens after death. ENTJ thinks we cease to exist, ie; when a loved one dies they only exist in your mind, in yourself-- and can become a catalyst towards greater action in your own life (which I see the merit in).

    The thing is I look at things in terms of natural processes. We live, we die, we become a blade of grass. This is the physical process. But the intangible certainly exists(hear me out entjs)--our thoughts are intangible but they exist (though they rely on stimuli), air is intangible though it exists (which stimuli relies on), so why would what is intangible in us cease to exist and the physical take new form? I'm using a line of deductive reasoning here based on systems of the natural world, but the root of what I think comes from feeling.

    In any case my ENTJ bf and I are good people, so maybe it doesn't really matter that much.

  2. #2
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    It seems ENTJ's generally approach religion rationally, and INFPs generally approach religion through feeling-- but the thing they both have in common is a strong intuition.
    No. Just no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    I feel that religion is used as a machine of manipulation like my ENTJ boyfriend
    It has been used that way, yes. But there's a lot more to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    The point of disagreement came at the idea of what happens after death. ENTJ thinks we cease to exist, ie; when a loved one dies they only exist in your mind, in yourself-- and can become a catalyst towards greater action in your own life (which I see the merit in).

    The thing is I look at things in terms of natural processes. We live, we die, we become a blade of grass. This is the physical process. But the intangible certainly exists(hear me out entjs)--our thoughts are intangible but they exist (though they rely on stimuli), air is intangible though it exists (which stimuli relies on), so why would what is intangible in us cease to exist and the physical take new form? I'm using a line of deductive reasoning here based on systems of the natural world, but the root of what I think comes from feeling.
    Air is actually quite tangible. Maybe not so to our senses, but we have a clear understanding of its physical properties, chemical structure, etc.

    Thoughts aren't really comparable, but still, humans also have a pretty clear understanding of the thought process, which is directly tied to the brain. When the brain dies, the process simply ceases. There is no evidence of thoughts having any kind of physical properties beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    In any case my ENTJ bf and I are good people, so maybe it doesn't really matter that much.
    That's great.

  3. #3
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Suddenly it all makes sense.
    wails from the crypt.

  4. #4
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    Yes, obviously there is more to religion than manipulation-- but I'm simply highlighting my problem with it. Of course without religion this world would probably be chaos, but that's a whole other issue.

    For something to be tangible it must be perceived by the senses (by definition).Air is conceptualized, but that doesn't make it tangible. And that is exactly my point. What if there are intangibles or unknowns which have yet to be conceptualized, and thus cannot be rationalized? Like death. Though we have a word for it, it only marks the end of something, reflecting the extent of our conceptualization of it.

    As for thoughts, they are energy, which cannot be destroyed, so why would we assume that the intangible ceases to exist because the physical form (and function) dies? At a scientific level, this is not plausible.

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    I'm less interested in the subject of this thread and more interested in the way in which INFPs and ENTJs approach the question.

  6. #6
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    "Fuck the police!" - Jesus

    Odelay.

  7. #7
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    No. Just no.


    It has been used that way, yes. But there's a lot more to it.


    Air is actually quite tangible. Maybe not so to our senses, but we have a clear understanding of its physical properties, chemical structure, etc.

    Thoughts aren't really comparable, but still, humans also have a pretty clear understanding of the thought process, which is directly tied to the brain. When the brain dies, the process simply ceases. There is no evidence of thoughts having any kind of physical properties beyond that.


    That's great.
    uh greed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    Of course without religion this world would probably be chaos, but that's a whole other issue.
    Last edited by Snuggletron; 06-08-2010 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Member Eye 'n' Teepee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salvadorabian View Post
    Yes, obviously there is more to religion than manipulation-- but I'm simply highlighting my problem with it. Of course without religion this world would probably be chaos, but that's a whole other issue.
    I don't see how the world would be chaotic without religion...in fact, I'm pretty sure religion greatly adds to the chaos. Some of the most chaotic countries in the world are Middle Eastern countries with very strong religious fundamentalism. People of different religions are constantly fighting with each other and in some countries this leads to absolute chaos. Sweden, on the other hand, which is made up of 85% atheists/agnostics, is one of the most peaceful countries in the world, is close to the top in quality of life, etc. I don't suspect a Swedish agnostic is going to be blowing up any subways in the near future.

    For something to be tangible it must be perceived by the senses (by definition).Air is conceptualized, but that doesn't make it tangible. And that is exactly my point. What if there are intangibles or unknowns which have yet to be conceptualized, and thus cannot be rationalized? Like death. Though we have a word for it, it only marks the end of something, reflecting the extent of our conceptualization of it.
    Air isn't tangible? Have you ever heard of wind? Maybe a better example to illustrate this would be a black hole. We can't have a direct encounter with a black hole, but we know it is there because of the effects it has on nearby objects. But the black hole still leaves its fingerprints. But it's still a physical phenomenon. Conscious thought is something that happens inside our brains. When we die, our brains also die. Our present understanding leads us to the conclusion that that's the end, but if anything new comes along that's liable to change.

    As for thoughts, they are energy, which cannot be destroyed, so why would we assume that the intangible ceases to exist because the physical form (and function) dies? At a scientific level, this is not plausible.
    Energy can be converted to other forms - like heat or food for maggots!

  9. #9
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    Actually 88% of the Swedish population belongs to the Swedish church-- and Sweden is run under a monarchy. Draw your own conclusions.

    The Middle East crisis is about oil interests, not religion. Maybe you should research why Osama's Saudi citizenship was revoked in the first place.

    I'm talking about air as a chemical compound, not it's reaction to other elements. When you use the example of the black hole you are dually conceptualizing it through extraneous physical properties and elements (like wind) but you still cannot definitevely tell me what a black hole is despite its effect on the physical world, which likens you're analogy more to the concept of death-- that which is unknown but effects the physical.

    As I said before, energy can be converted to other forms-- you live, you die, you become a blade of grass-- but this is still reducing things to the physical dimension. It's been proven scientifically that thoughts have frequencies, and energy attracts like energy (and energy cannot be destroyed) -- thoughts do not feed the maggots, unless a person's thoughts propels them into physically doing so.

  10. #10
    Member Talisyn's Avatar
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    If I carefully approach this (as my views appear quite different from yours) I will go as far to share that I do approach more spiritual views with a lot of emphasis on the peace that I feel and *just knowing*. However, logic is a very large part of what I believe.
    I want to be alive To all the life that is in me now, to know each moment to the uttermost.
    (Khalil Gibran from Mary Haskell's Journal June 7, 1912.)

    "I'd rather die than live without Mercy and Love" - House of Heroes, Code Name Raven


    "I write/Slowly at first/Then the words come quicker/Slow in comparison/To my rapid thoughts/I fall silent/In awe of love"

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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