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  1. #31
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    does neurological complexity really presume better judgment?
    Does it not?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  2. #32
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Eyebrows View Post
    They're also relatively short.

    Coincidence? I don't think so.
    Dun dun DUNN!!!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #33
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Does it not?
    Complexity is an extremely subjective term. The brain of an elephant which is far larger than ours and by its nature has a larger amount of neurological connections can be argued to be more complex. Or perhaps the brain of rat: the entirety of it could occupy a 20 millimeter space yet they possess an intelligence that matches dogs and cats. Or perhaps we could argue that the brain of a cockroach is complex: a cockroach can live for several weeks without its head and brain. The remainders of its nervous system will upkeep its biological functions in the proceeding period. I’d love to be able to pull that trick off. But despite the arguable complexity of their neurological system many could also argue that a cockroach has inferior conscious judgment to a human being.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  4. #34
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    I can see both sides of the argument here and agree that children should not take the testing BUT there needs to be a better framework in education with type/temperament aware educators and parents who can assist children to learn in the areas in which they have talent, and in ways that best suit their learning styles. At the moment we are creating a division by medicating those who don't do well in a linear environment into mediocrity.

    From observation these tend to be very intelligent abstract and creative thinkers (and feelers). If we continue on this path then we will lose those with the potential to be great just because they are different and will create a generation of neurotics who believe that there is something wrong with them. Interestingly enough NPs and SPs seem to dominate this group of "misfits" we often refer to as having ADD.

    My thoughts and observations on this loosely relate to a previous thread on Aspergers and Type and another current thread on Schizophrenia.

    Before anyone accuses me of being elitist, I believe everyone has a talent of one sort or another. Those learning and working within their talent area will excel and enjoy the feeling and strive further because they want to! It is the only way for any society to work smarter rather than harder.

    While I am not a lover of statistics, there is sufficient evidence of the predominant fields entered by each of the 16 types/temperaments.

    If observation using type/temperament by parents and educators can assist young people to realise their potential then it is a valuable tool, albeit flawed.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  5. #35
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I thinking forcing MBTI on children is child abuse, actually. They don't yet have the maturity to discern that these labels aren't "who they are" and may feel compelled to live up to these labels to impress adults.
    Heh. If a parent is attempting to use the system so the child has better self awareness about their behaviour and motivations along with a better understandings of their relationships with others it's hardly child abuse. You don't sit down with a 10 year old and talk about the theory of MBTI but you can talk about how and why people are different and make them aware of potential strengths and weaknesses.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Yes, adults take care of children because they sprout from their loins and have legal custody over them. Not because adults are inherently wiser simply for being adults; the rather troubling statistics for child molestation and murder would beg to differ on that.
    That makes up a very small percentage of the population, troubling though it may be.

    How so and does neurological complexity really presume better judgment?
    Ok - you let your children be the boss. Let me know how that works out for you. I am not a mother, but I have been around children my entire life, and used to baby-sit up to six children at a time when I was in my late teens. I did student observations of middle school aged children in public schools. I taught Sunday school to pre-schoolers. I also have two nephews and three nieces. I'm telling you, children are not born with inherently good judgement. That is why we teach them. Unfortunately, some children get poorly taught, and then they grow up to be broken adults.

    A teenager who is reckless and impulsive is likely to become an adult who is reckless and impulsive. Your average honor student who attends to his grades and maintains a position of responsibility within school clubs has far better judgment than the average adult who buys lottery tickets and rejoices in getting ‘plastered’, and will likely remain as such.
    You're very much overgeneralizing and I don't think that's the case necessarily because many adolescents go through a "wild phase" which they grow out of during their twenties. I've taken child development classes. What you're saying doesn't jive with what I've observed or been taught.

  7. #37
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Complexity is an extremely subjective term. The brain of an elephant which is far larger than ours and by its nature has a larger amount of neurological connections can be argued to be more complex. Or perhaps the brain of rat: the entirety of it could occupy a 20 millimeter space yet they possess an intelligence that matches dogs and cats. Or perhaps we could argue that the brain of a cockroach is complex: a cockroach can live for several weeks without its head and brain. The remainders of its nervous system will upkeep its biological functions in the proceeding period. I’d love to be able to pull that trick off. But despite the arguable complexity of their neurological system many could also argue that a cockroach has inferior conscious judgment to a human being.
    We are talking about humans; and adult/child brain complexity affecting judgment capabilities, specifically.

    What is your opinion on that?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  8. #38
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skin View Post
    Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?
    Ummm, for it to be intellectually understandable? Why would someone want to leave something not understood?

    Quote Originally Posted by skin View Post
    Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?
    For some of us, we simply lack these intincts... but for the 'normal' people, intutive instincts are very difficult to work with and communicate. They are so... fuzzy. But the intincts are (hopefully) not forgotten, they are just expanded upon by a system.

    Quote Originally Posted by skin View Post
    Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?
    Yeah, a lot of adults fear chaos, but it is also that systems simply work better, are communicatable, and allow things to be intellectually understandable. I don't fear chaos: I face it head on, and analyze it like crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    English has a vocabulary; MBTI has a jargon.
    What do you mean by a 'jargon'? Isn't jargon simply a subset of vocabulary?

  9. #39
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skin View Post
    Why use a proxy, when you have access to the real deal.
    Because I like categorizing the real-deal.

    /Half Tongue-In-Cheek

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I see MBTI has a means to communicate; a vocabulary.
    But in all seriousness, I agree with Sytpg. MBTI is merely a communication form, a set of tools, yet not the only available set. It just contains the most useful tools I've personally encountered. I rely less on type than I do on functions. And I almost neglect any arbitrary category like gender, race, class, sexual-orientation, etc. These labels are important to the rest of the world, but they do little in persuading me to change my mind.

    For example -- knowing that someone has Fe in the auxiliary or dominant position is very helpful for me because it's the one Je function I instinctively rebel against. "I need to respectfully value each living person" isn't enough for me to stop Te-ing the daylights out of that individual, because I think to myself --- I can do it, so why can't they? Or sometimes the situations are reversed and I'm left confused at the difficulty I have in doing what appears to be natural for other people.

    And MBTI/Jung rectifies that. I understand what's blocking them from doing certain things, and how they can get around it. I intellectually recognize that "Wow, people are very, very different from me."

    So MBTI/Jung is what you make of it. Either that can limit your perspective, or broaden your horizons. This is your choice. But I truly think it's naive to assume that without MBTI, people don't try to organize the "real deal" in some "me vs. you", "us vs. them", "mind vs. heart", etc. form. It's how we differentiate our surroundings. That's why we have theories to generally explain odd phenomenons, invented counting units like math & time, rally under groups that share our beliefs, and so on. If they are not relevant to what you seek, then throw it out. Yet, however, this alone doesn't take away the utility it has for someone else.

    As another example, math is practically the mother language in physics. But in something completely messy, imperfect and subjective like relationships? It's as useful as the neighborhood troll. MBTI/Jung can be the same way. Their usefulness depends on how, why, when, where, what and who it is used for.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  10. #40
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That makes up a very small percentage of the population, troubling though it may be.
    An incident of child abuse is reported every ten seconds every day. Those are the reported cases; actual cases are estimated to be up three times that amount. And that's exactly why the statistics are as troubling as they are.
    Ok - you let your children be the boss. Let me know how that works out for you. I am not a mother, but I have been around children my entire life, and used to baby-sit up to six children at a time when I was in my late teens. I did student observations of middle school aged children in public schools. I taught Sunday school to pre-schoolers. I also have two nephews and three nieces. I'm telling you, children are not born with inherently good judgement. That is why we teach them. Unfortunately, some children get poorly taught, and then they grow up to be broken adults.
    I’m not arguing that children are born with good judgment though I would go off to state that there are enough children with better judgment than many adults that it’s not overly practical to make assumptions about their abilities. This is especially true for older children and teenagers. I’m also arguing that custody bestowed upon adult parents has little to do with their own judgment (most children are unplanned after all) but more to with the fact that there are lack of non-draconian alternatives. Anecdotal evidence isn’t particularly convincing. I assume that all of us here have been children, have associated with children, and many of us here are young enough to recall the experience firsthand rather vividly. I myself am less than 12 months removed from high school graduation so I have a bit of experience with teenagers.
    You're very much overgeneralizing and I don't think that's the case necessarily because many adolescents go through a "wild phase" which they grow out of during their twenties. I've taken child development classes. What you're saying doesn't jive with what I've observed or been taught.
    There's quite a bit of research on this but my statement about a stabilized development by early adolescence was by far the most conservative of the findings. Most psychologists believe that one's basic personality is actually developed as early as age 3. This includes the 'wild' behavior that you mentioned.
    Children's Behavioral Styles at Age 3 are Linked to Their Adult Personality Traits at Age 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    We are talking about humans; and adult/child brain complexity affecting judgment capabilities, specifically.

    What is your opinion on that?
    The pattern still holds true for humans. Complexity is still an extremely subjective word and studies on animal biology can still provide valuable findings for human biology, which is why rats and chimpanzees are typically used to draw theories regarding human intelligence. The area of Albert Einstein's brain responsible for the analysis of language, for instance, was smaller, less developed, and arguably less complex than that of your average person but you could easily argue that he possessed better judgment on social issues and various causes than they do. In order to further probe the issue what we really need is a definition of "complexity". Roughly 90% of an individuals brain mass is developed by age six after all.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

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