• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

IP/EJ versus IJ/EP

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,591
MBTI Type
ENTP
First off, I like what Athenian has said here, in that for iNtuitive first types, it is absorption then processing. While for Thinking first types, it is the processing first, then the fact absorption.

As an Ne Ti, I usually find myself swimming with inputs, then trying to find a structure that'd make sense of it. It means then FDG's process would only come into play when that structure is formed and the Ti is fixated though, the second stage as Xander says - i.e. I'm becoming more INTP in a sense, in the selection of facts to corroborate or destroy my structure. At this stage, usually the Ne has had enough. Hence the closure and start of fact selection.

A second stage IP/EJ, who has already formed their structure, however, would then be seeking information to corroborate or deny their structure (engaging the Ne more). This creates the appearance of openess, to fit FDG's theory.

But I'd hesitate to say the IP/EJ is truly open - in that, I don't feel they really accept things, but are merely looking for the variety in sample size, then selecting what is of value to prove or deny their theory. Anything which falls inbetween is usually discarded. I think they'd cling more firmly to their beliefs vs an EP/IJ - and this also means the fall is harder for them when a belief is crushed. An EP/IJ would tend to walk away easier I'd think.

To use an example. When meeting a person for a first time, I think an EP/IJ is likely to want to find out more about them, their likes, dislikes, get a handle on their personality, their being. Then they may discover that, oh shites, this person doesn't taste so good. They then start to wonder, hmm, are any of my friends like this, or given their circumstances, is it fair for them to be like that, if so, hmm, maybe it is ok. But after a while, it galls them, and they'd get bored. "I don't like them anymore. Anything you say doesn't change it." And it ends. The death of the Ne kills the relationship.

An IP/EJ, is likely to first wonder. Is this person interesting enough for me to want to find out more, and pique me out of my boredom. Hmm. Ok. This seems interesting. Lets find out more. And they get hooked and want to drain the person dry. When the person is dry, they're likely to shake the bones and go, what, no more? :boohoo: But I liked them. Surfeit of Ne kills it.

So I'd go for EP/IJ as absorbers-reactors. IP/EJs as filters-seekers.
 

Natrushka

Pareo cattus
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,213
MBTI Type
INTJ
A concrete example :thinking: that would be difficult. I have noted before though that I've read and replied to an IJ before (dunno who, it's a generic pattern thing) and they've come back semi berating me for missing questions or parts of the subject which were important. It often leaves me confused because I'd considered them trivialities or side point and had almost filtered them out before I'd even read them. It makes sense that a person who drinks the barrel dry and then thinks about it would find that irritating.

I've experienced this with IP/EJs. It's something I've been accused of in the past (Jennifer? ;) ). I'm constantly amazed at some of the posts I read in reply to questions, the incredible detail supplied or the trivialities (to me) addressed that I'd dismissed but made the original poster happy. Makes me glad to have the IP/EJs around.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
First off, I like what Athenian has said here, in that for iNtuitive first types, it is absorption then processing. While for Thinking first types, it is the processing first, then the fact absorption.

As an Ne Ti, I usually find myself swimming with inputs, then trying to find a structure that'd make sense of it. It means then FDG's process would only come into play when that structure is formed and the Ti is fixated though, the second stage as Xander says - i.e. I'm becoming more INTP in a sense, in the selection of facts to corroborate or destroy my structure. At this stage, usually the Ne has had enough. Hence the closure and start of fact selection.
More INTP? Pah!!
You wish :tongue10:

I does seem to fit though. Kind of a second string pattern only barely picked up on unless you're looking directly at it.
A second stage IP/EJ, who has already formed their structure, however, would then be seeking information to corroborate or deny their structure (engaging the Ne more). This creates the appearance of openess, to fit FDG's theory.
Personally I see it as a first hypothesis. I then go and see if it works. See we're innovative and individual :D
But I'd hesitate to say the IP/EJ is truly open - in that, I don't feel they really accept things, but are merely looking for the variety in sample size, then selecting what is of value to prove or deny their theory. Anything which falls inbetween is usually discarded.
That'd be representative of the less developed amongst those types yes.
I think they'd cling more firmly to their beliefs vs an EP/IJ - and this also means the fall is harder for them when a belief is crushed. An EP/IJ would tend to walk away easier I'd think.
Yeah INTJs are soo likely to walk away. Not if you tell them it's wrong, only if they figure out that it's wrong.

The difference you're picking up on is the EJ/IP would probably need to find why it doesn't work before they move on where as the EP/IJ would simply resume sucking up all that information and then try again.
To use an example. When meeting a person for a first time, I think an EP/IJ is likely to want to find out more about them, their likes, dislikes, get a handle on their personality, their being. Then they may discover that, oh shites, this person doesn't taste so good. They then start to wonder, hmm, are any of my friends like this, or given their circumstances, is it fair for them to be like that, if so, hmm, maybe it is ok. But after a while, it galls them, and they'd get bored. "I don't like them anymore. Anything you say doesn't change it." And it ends. The death of the Ne kills the relationship.
EP/IJs tend to get to false assumptions though, particularly Ns, as they leap from irrelevant information to a conclusion.

Not that EJ/IPs are immune to this but it does appear less often IME (thinking back this is).
An IP/EJ, is likely to first wonder. Is this person interesting enough for me to want to find out more, and pique me out of my boredom. Hmm. Ok. This seems interesting. Lets find out more. And they get hooked and want to drain the person dry. When the person is dry, they're likely to shake the bones and go, what, no more? :boohoo: But I liked them. Surfeit of Ne kills it.
So cynical and yet true from a certain point of view.
So I'd go for EP/IJ as absorbers-reactors. IP/EJs as filters-seekers.
That sounds too biased. It places EP/IJ as active and EJ/IP as passive. Have you known a passive ESTJ? How about ENTJ?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I've experienced this with IP/EJs. It's something I've been accused of in the past (Jennifer? ;) ).

Who, me? *innocent*

Honestly, though, I don't remember.

I'm constantly amazed at some of the posts I read in reply to questions, the incredible detail supplied or the trivialities (to me) addressed that I'd dismissed but made the original poster happy. Makes me glad to have the IP/EJs around.

I do know I've been berated by "skipping things" in someone's comments that, yes, I thought to be side issues... much as I would edit and shape a paper and focus on what I thought to be important. Or perhaps I just had nothing to really say on those points. And then having them come back and ask for more explanation.

But sometimes I know I can be very picky with my own writing. I don't know; sometimes I paint with a very broad glossy brush, like "rough sketching" the idea, and other times my ideas hinge on very particular words that have to be considered as-is, and if something is removed, the whole thing no longer works.

As far as bias, I admit to having ideas in mind when I'm discussing... but I'm still looking for validation/refutation. I can definitely get attached to my ideas, especially if they seem to follow the patterns I've perceived (i.e., they seem very true), but I also try very hard to be willing to change or let them shift when something comes up to refute them.

And honestly, even when I hate it, I can't help but shift my stance when new information comes to light; I wish I could just fight for an idea because I want it to be true, but if there's doubt, I can't just ignore it; weaknesses in my own stances gnaw on me.

So yes, I usually have a "theory" that I'm trying to test, but it's constantly changing once I get more information.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I've experienced this with IP/EJs. It's something I've been accused of in the past (Jennifer? ;) ). I'm constantly amazed at some of the posts I read in reply to questions, the incredible detail supplied or the trivialities (to me) addressed that I'd dismissed but made the original poster happy. Makes me glad to have the IP/EJs around.
I was thinking as I read that, that INTJs would be the worst example (or possibly the exception) to this whole EP/IJ vs EJ/IP divide.

Mind you I think what you describe is possibly more NT related than anything.

Dunno.
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,591
MBTI Type
ENTP
More INTP? Pah!!
You wish :tongue10:

I'm using my Ti and ignoring that. *wills Xander to keep his damn tongue where it belongs*

I does seem to fit though. Kind of a second string pattern only barely picked up on unless you're looking directly at it.

Personally I see it as a first hypothesis. I then go and see if it works. See we're innovative and individual :D

That'd be representative of the less developed amongst those types yes.

The difference lies then in the stage of maturity of the IP/EJ, isn't it? But the process does not change.

One who is more developed would move to the Ne more quickly. A lesser developed one would just stay fixated on forming the structure. The same with the EP/IJ. Level of development will denote how well they can engage the auxilliary. I'd surmise for e.g. yourself, Jennifer and FDG are further in the scale of development, demonstrated by your willingness to accept the dross from lower mortals :devil:

Yeah INTJs are soo likely to walk away. Not if you tell them it's wrong, only if they figure out that it's wrong.

This is the stage of development, isn't it.

Fixation comes from Ne or Ti? As an INTJ, if the Ne has been closed off, the walking away is less likely, isn't it.

The difference you're picking up on is the EJ/IP would probably need to find why it doesn't work before they move on where as the EP/IJ would simply resume sucking up all that information and then try again.

i.e. the EJ/IP sucks one selected victim dry in one breath, then moves on to another after certifying the first one dead.

While the EP/IJ takes a nibble, stops for a breath and selects another, then continues with the first victim while holding on to the second.

The latter just hasn't closed the Ne yet. While the former has activated his Ne to the max.

EP/IJs tend to get to false assumptions though, particularly Ns, as they leap from irrelevant information to a conclusion.

That's why they need to develop to engage the Ti. . Less developed ENTPs are frustrating. Soome would argue developed ENTPs are even worse. Because besides being highly intuitive, they are starting to think!

Not that EJ/IPs are immune to this but it does appear less often IME (thinking back this is).

Yes, they are protected because they think first.

So cynical and yet true from a certain point of view.
:yes:

That sounds too biased. It places EP/IJ as active and EJ/IP as passive. Have you known a passive ESTJ? How about ENTJ?

Semantics? I meant the EP/IJ is more passive - they absorb and react - these are both passive processes. The IP/EJ is the active one, in filtering and seeking ??
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i.e. the EJ/IP sucks one selected victim dry in one breath, then moves on to another after certifying the first one dead.

As an intellectual vampire, I think it is only right and proper to give my victim contributor my full attention. (Dracula has morals too!)

No dilettante promiscuity from me, nosirree.
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,591
MBTI Type
ENTP
As an intellectual vampire, I think it is only right and proper to give my victim contributor my full attention. (Dracula has morals too!)

No dilettante promiscuity from me, nosirree.

The absence of dilettante promiscuity just makes Dracula a serial monogamist, isn't it. ;)

Edit: mwahhahaa Holly Jolly Dolly?! Dracula with mistletoe is in da house.
 

Natrushka

Pareo cattus
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,213
MBTI Type
INTJ
Who, me? *innocent*

Honestly, though, I don't remember.

Months and months ago, in relation to a post with a laundry list of questions / thoughts of which only one is addressed. Mighta been a PM? :confused:
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
But I'd hesitate to say the IP/EJ is truly open - in that, I don't feel they really accept things, but are merely looking for the variety in sample size, then selecting what is of value to prove or deny their theory. Anything which falls inbetween is usually discarded. I think they'd cling more firmly to their beliefs vs an EP/IJ - and this also means the fall is harder for them when a belief is crushed. An EP/IJ would tend to walk away easier I'd think...

So I'd go for EP/IJ as absorbers-reactors. IP/EJs as filters-seekers.

Uhhh...? EJs (and I can't believe I'm going to defend IPs :sick:) sound a tad myopic and singular minded in this description. Can you explain further pls?
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
:yes: Everyone's getting rep points for their gems here.... as long as I remember this time :whistling:

*kicks your shin* lol :D


Odd that you'd find an ENTJ hard work. My sister is an ENFJ and my father is an ENTJ and they are as thick as thieves most of the time. Each can reveal the flipside to the other. She can map my fathers emotions very well and he can map her thoughts. I, on the other hand, just get told I'm disorganised and chaotic :D

No no, I mean when Athena redlines and gets her horns down. It's not that we don't get along -- it's that when she's finally gone rabid, my ENFP sister knows exactly how to talk to her to pull the fuse out of the bomb. When Athena needs affirmation, mano-y-mano, she gets a lot out of putting her head to mine. We spark the same. But "same" isn't always a help. That's why she needs Jaye to help her when she's losing contact with the ground.
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,591
MBTI Type
ENTP
Uhhh...? EJs (and I can't believe I'm going to defend IPs :sick:) sound a tad myopic and singular minded in this description. Can you explain further pls?

Xander (INTP *grin*) earlier commented, "That'd be representative of the less developed amongst those types."

I clarified somewhere in my reply to him that I meant it as an active process of first filtering, then processing/absorbing, vs vice versa. That does not equate myopia? I think any myopia kicks in only if any type is less developed, whether EP/IJ or IP/EJ. (Damn, I agree with Xander there. :boohoo: )

i.e. for an EP/IJ who is less developed, I think they'd not able to start their processing, and would fixated on collecting sensations, unable to engage their Ti. This would cause them to be truly blind and lack focus/logic, selective of information they wish to hear to fit some ill-formed opinion.

While for an EJ/IP, if they're less developed and unable to engage their Ne for e.g., the fixation starts early, resulting in a myopia due to insufficient inputs taken.

So the types on both sides who are more well-developed and able to engage their auxilliary, should not suffer from that. Is that clearer? :yes:
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Agreeing with Xander is the first step down the long dark staircase of psychosis.

I'm on Step Three. Meet me down there. :D
 

white

~dangerous curves ahead~
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
2,591
MBTI Type
ENTP
Verily, I believe it is a slide and not a staircase even. Engaging my Ti brakes once he starts shooting inputs at me, actually. ;)

*notes to self. No derailment*
 

Mycroft

The elder Holmes
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,068
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
I can see validity in this, even for INTJs. One of the things I've had to learn is to pick and choose from my many Super Fantastic Intuitions. I used to try to attempt to follow through on too many of them, running myself ragged and not devoting myself to any one thing sufficiently.

When it comes to the external world, though, I usually know what information I'm looking for and go after it with laser-vision. (Or tunnel vision, depending upon how you'd like to look at it...)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I think I have it. An explanation as to why this doesn't appear to work so well for IJs and EJs. I think I and aelan were approaching from a quite P perspective.

Right if EP & IJ drink in all the inputs, the reason that IJs seem to not be filled with 1,001 pieces of information is because (as Mycroft made me realise) they clamp down with hard decisions and focus on the few pieces of information which are deemed relevant. I guess the rest is discarded. Similarly EJs would make those hard defining decisions as they choose the information to use.

It's probably not worded too well but how's that for an integrated concept of how this divide works?
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
EJs would make those hard defining decisions as they choose the information to use.

I relate to this, Xander. I'm a glutton for information/data and can absorb reams of it, but I'll get swamped faster than an IJ might. My INTJ best friend's retention of data is a bit marvelous to me, though we seem to share the same compulsive drive to accumulate.
 

Hypomanic

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
89
MBTI Type
INTJ
:eek: an ENTP who admits to it!!!

:D

Bet my INTJ mate would not admit to such an illogical behaviour.
The reason I can admit to illogical behavior is that my ENTJ mom and my INTP sister have made me more aware of myself. I dunno if other EP/IJ's would. In fact, I know ENFP's wouldn't. I also know that I wouldn't admit to being illogical to a stranger on the street. Only to those I trust so that I can rule out illogicalities when communicating with those outside of my inner-circle.

First off, I like what Athenian has said here, in that for iNtuitive first types, it is absorption then processing. While for Thinking first types, it is the processing first, then the fact absorption.

So true. I have yet to meet an ENTJ/INTP that does not process, then absorb facts.
I also have yet to meet an ENTP/INTJ that does not absorb facts and then process.

Edit:
Adding more people I know to see correlation..
This true for these Thinking types--ISTP, ESTJ
This is true for these Intuitive types--INFJ, ENFP
 
Last edited:
Top