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  1. #31
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    Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We're all individuals!
    Brian: You're all different!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
    Man in Crowd: I'm not.
    Random Man: Shhh!

  2. #32
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windigo View Post
    Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We're all individuals!
    Brian: You're all different!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
    Man in Crowd: I'm not.
    Random Man: Shhh!

    "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy, now piss off!"
    *chuckles*
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #33
    Senior Member Kurt.Is.God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy, now piss off!"
    *chuckles*
    heh. heh. i'm sorry. i really need to stop making this sort of joke. it's really not funny...

  4. #34
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So this thing were people run on rails... they do, y'know, like slaves to functional preferences. From the inside it doesn't look like rails. From the inside you're working what you've got and you've got a lot. From the outside... knee-jerk responsiveness, determined sphere of influence and concern, over-blown (aka "universal") metaphysics, all that crap, as if everyone else were just like you only dumber. Soap opera characters. Doing the same things again and again, generating the same kind of situation again and again, favouring the same kind of outcome. Again and again.

    Individuality would lie in individuation, the ability to recognise the nature of the "again and again" process, wouldn't it? Or if not recognise, then at least form some habit of addressing. Which doesn't necessarily mean you have to marry MBTI, but... what else is there free from the idiosyncrasies of your own perspectives? To actually perform the individuation doesn't require MBTI nor typology, of course, but what else is the process if not addressing one's own persistent perspectives?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #35
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Which naturally raises the question, just how hardcore are your "perspectives"? Functions, in other words. Do they come in low and high varieties, weak and strong flavours, mildly preferred versus all out lovin' it?

    Well, there's the traditional distinction no one remembers, that test results are a measure of the conscious clarity with which you apprehend the existence of your perspectives. The difference between a test result and an actual perspective is the difference between saying and being. Or, as in the case of functions, being constituted by. What people usually call "having" or "using".

    See, if cognitive functions are anything, they're constitutive of your psyche. They aren't tools. They're foundations. So, do they come in stronger and weaker varietals? Would you want them to? If they did come in stronger and weaker forms, which one would you buy?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #36
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm going to go with the idea that "stronger" and "weaker" is a measure not of the function, but of a person's aware attachment to whatever perspective goes with whichever function. And then I'll say there is to no great conscious extent anything other than what a type says you've got. This nonsense of using alt-functions isn't true. One's psyche is dominated, controlled, governed, by, and all round holistically engineered to service, one's dominant function. The other functions are add-ons, and, statistically, appear in conscious processing about as often as their position on the function tables suggest, higher meaning more often, lower meaning less. To a very large extent, your dominant function is what you do, and more or less nothing else. The rest of it, all the other functions, is nuance. And the lower down the function order, the less control, the more apparent the rails.

    That doesn't mean the lower level functions are to be pitied in their weakness. They aren't weak. Weakly conscious, yes, but not weak in and of themselves. But weakly conscious means they're not that much of what you're about. They'll affect the direction of thought and personality, but not... well, consciously.

    *sigh* This stuff is already well-known, right? Accepted. It's canon. It's what people are. Isn't it?



    OOoo, but wait... conscious drawing of functions out of prescribed positions... that happens. A life spent attending to concerns other than those one was made for... that'll bring to prominence other functions. Or will it? Wouldn't it just make a crippled psyche? Misshapen and abused. How meaningful is function order?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #37
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And then I'll say there is to no great conscious extent anything other than what a type says you've got. This nonsense of using alt-functions isn't true. One's psyche is dominated, controlled, governed, by, and all round holistically engineered to service, one's dominant function. The other functions are add-ons, and, statistically, appear in conscious processing about as often as their position on the function tables suggest, higher meaning more often, lower meaning less. To a very large extent, your dominant function is what you do, and more or less nothing else. The rest of it, all the other functions, is nuance.
    i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.

  8. #38
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.
    And it's important to one day leave home? Sounds reasonable. But I'd like to see some description of some mechanism. Actually, if there were a description of that mechanism, a description of what cognitive maturation is, that'd be cool. How conscious is the process of maturation, I wonder. Technically, since it is the maturation of consciousness, it should have some conscious component. But it seems like there has to be some large unconscious component too. Where the original foundation comes from perhaps. And this does or doesn't shape, even limit, the conscious possibilities?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #39
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Urggh, fine I'll play...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Doing the same things again and again, generating the same kind of situation again and again, favouring the same kind of outcome. Again and again.
    of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Individuality would lie in individuation, the ability to recognise the nature of the "again and again" process, wouldn't it? Or if not recognise, then at least form some habit of addressing. Which doesn't necessarily mean you have to marry MBTI, but... what else is there free from the idiosyncrasies of your own perspectives? To actually perform the individuation doesn't require MBTI nor typology, of course, but what else is the process if not addressing one's own persistent perspectives?
    I have yet to see a good definition of individuation, so who knows what it really means. To become more healthy? What is that?

    As for the bold, MBTI gives a nice skeletal framework-but it doesnt really supply a toolkit to move beyond the frame. To modify the skeleton, look to the wide variety of mediative techniques. Mindful meditation for instance strengthens Se, even in an NFP. Meditation with the goal of detachment moves you away from Fi and towards a state of Fe-but note how the buddhist monks describe it as being almost painful at first to go through that detachment process.

    My knowledge fails me here-but doesnt a lot of cognitive psychology emphasize the ability to step above and meta-observe your own behaviors-then choose to do something else. That meta observation is a learned tool. But first you have to know what the patterns of behavior are-which can easily be determined based upon MBTI.

    Perhaps the most promising tool may be nuero-linguistic programming, in spite of its questionable rep. It is a very diverse toolkit-with no basis in theory-thus it's results can be pretty sketchy-as certain things may only work with certain MBTI types. Yet you can seriously fuck up your own mind if you play with it. Based upon work my entp and I have seen and done, it appears to allow swapping of functions and simultaneous use of functions. The results are very strange and extremely obvious to the person.

    Even something as simple as focusing primarily on optimism, dismissing negative thoughts and dismissing your sense of self pride, finding humility? That is Te/Fi moving towards Fe-but it sucks to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    See, if cognitive functions are anything, they're constitutive of your psyche. They aren't tools. They're foundations. So, do they come in stronger and weaker varietals? Would you want them to? If they did come in stronger and weaker forms, which one would you buy?
    I'd suggest the hypothosis that functional strength is genetic-perhaps epigenetic. This is pure BS guessing, but I see accelerated Te usage in every EXFP in my family-from early childhood. If it is stressed imposed, via the mother, it may be epigenetic. In a stressful situation this would be a good thing-an EXFP cannot afford to be kind if there is not enough food available. Thus social stress shapes cogntive strength-perhaps epigentically. But all Ne....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That doesn't mean the lower level functions are to be pitied in their weakness. They aren't weak. Weakly conscious, yes, but not weak in and of themselves. But weakly conscious means they're not that much of what you're about. They'll affect the direction of thought and personality, but not... well, consciously.
    I would suggest if you manage to pull them from the depths-they can be exceptionally strong in their power-but exceptionally simplistic in how they work. Assuming a biological basis-you are turning a switch that is opening up entire dormant pathway-the pathway hasnt had pruning. Strength does not equal maturity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    OOoo, but wait... conscious drawing of functions out of prescribed positions... that happens. A life spent attending to concerns other than those one was made for... that'll bring to prominence other functions. Or will it? Wouldn't it just make a crippled psyche? Misshapen and abused. How meaningful is function order?
    It makes for ENFPs who move into executive positions. It makes for utterly fascinating people who actually are more interesting than the norm. I went to dinner with a nobal prize winner in genetics the other night. He said to cherish those who are different as evolution eliminates them. Yet because they are different, they have perspectives that the rest of us do not have-insight. Thus you should listen to these "crippled" individuals as they have stepped outside of the 16 boxes and perceive and jundge in unexpected ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And it's important to one day leave home? Sounds reasonable. But I'd like to see some description of some mechanism. Actually, if there were a description of that mechanism, a description of what cognitive maturation is, that'd be cool. How conscious is the process of maturation, I wonder. Technically, since it is the maturation of consciousness, it should have some conscious component. But it seems like there has to be some large unconscious component too. Where the original foundation comes from perhaps. And this does or doesn't shape, even limit, the conscious possibilities?
    Cognitive maturation. To develop a function you must use the function-so says my mbti instructor. But to use it is to fuck up. I'd suggest to never look at cognitive functiuon in isolation-look at the pairs. Ne-Fi, Fi-Si, Te-Si for enfps-but for intjs Ni-Te, Fi-Se, and then Te-Se???? Yeah i dunno....

    And a nice quote to end on, just to remind us of why it is we may sometimes act in more negative ways... we really are all just patterns in the end. We will lash out to defend the cognitive function that most closely identifies with our ego. However maturation of that function-that requires stepping away from that defensive reaction-inserting a pause.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I still suffer from feelings of inferiority, although, they are usually caused by my idea of what I should be (self-imposed standards I can't meet), rather than comparisons of myself to others. I usually don't find other people intimidating, but those that I do, are people that irritate me. Those irritating people are quickly put through a systematic mental breakdown, in which every one of their flaws are thrown onto the table in an effort to make them small again. Now, People that have desirable qualities, and don't irritate me, are secretly admired; idolized even.

    No one is perfect though, because no one can be perfect.

  10. #40
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.
    Jung spoke of libido and natural gradients. This is of course just a name, not a mechanism, but it would seem to flag the existence of a limited number of activation paths. Indeed, it would seem to suggest that it's possible to make rational choices that in no way accord with what your psyche can actually accomplish.

    Mmmmm... libido...

    What is libido? Creative energy? The direction and directing of conscious attention? Where does that come from?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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