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View Poll Results: Which group has more difficulty as it relates to gender norms, life, and society?

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  • Male NFs

    52 59.77%
  • Female NTs

    35 40.23%
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  1. #81
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Depends on the strength of F/T. Assuming that both are strong I would say that:

    Male NF: Earlier can easily find struggles in school socially, but because of being an F can probably find very reliable social security through family/few friends/girlfriend, what have you. Probably might suffer in relationships for being too sensitive, maybe in school and career as well.

    Female NT: Biased, but I believe this is worse, I'll just go from personal experience from this. I've been called selfish, autistic, whatever by most of my friends. I lost most of my friends because they are the embodiment of pure F and nothing else, and even me breathing to them was offensive. I've become asexual because I don't have a chance in hell of ever getting a date, nor, after seeing everyone fail in relationships, do I want to try. I know it's a little extreme, but personally I feel like it's worse for whatever you value more. If you value the opposite, I guess it'd say it'd be extremely difficult.

  2. #82
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've seen too many ENTP women do just fine socially and romantically
    Haha, girl, I'm your exception XD

  3. #83
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    it's not the easiest thing being an ST woman either- we're apt at manly tasks, which is a threat... plus, the thinking edge always displeases the traditionalists
    I dunno, actually. I've found that I gain a lot of respect from men simply by being me. My male ENFJ friend told me once that I "command respect", which was pretty cool, especially when I realized he was right; I can't think of a single person off the top of my head who doesn't respect me. (I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging here. It's very possible that people disrespect me and I don't notice.) I think, because of that, I don't really have it hard at all.

    ... except for the issue of getting a date. In that regard, it's way easier for F guys, I think, because women seem to be trained from a young age to want a "sensitive guy", and male NFs are just that. But no guys are trained to want a tough, tomboyish go-getter...
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ... except for the issue of getting a date. In that regard, it's way easier for F guys, I think, because women seem to be trained from a young age to want a "sensitive guy", and male NFs are just that. But no guys are trained to want a tough, tomboyish go-getter...
    "Yeeeaaahhhh.....I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there."



    I'm not sure what you mean by 'women are trained at a young age to want a sensitive guy.' I think women, especially young or immature ones, are attracted to the exact opposite. That's why the stereotype exists that women like jerks. Some women will downright admit that they are attracted to arrogant, self-centered assholes; others will deny it. I think it would be accurate to say that...given the option between choosing a sensitive guy or a non-sensitive guy, most women would choose the latter even if they claim they would prefer the former.

  5. #85
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Now that's taking it too far. ENTP women have it easier socially and romantically than you as an INFP women? And INTx women may as well? Heh. Step outside your bubble, maybe you specifically have a tough-tough life but pha-leeeese! My empirical evidence conflicts with yours.

    News flash: No one has it easy! Life is not easy. And one persons dramas are not easier than another from their personal perspective because no one has it easy.
    Right, your experience differs, and that's all this thread will amount to: anecdotal experience & half-baked theory. I don't see any reason to jump down my throat.

    And no one may have it easy, but some may have it easier. To say that all people go through life with the same level of ease is ridiculous.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #86
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mask Manifest View Post
    "Yeeeaaahhhh.....I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there."

    Win! I love Office Space... and Lumbergh is SO ESTJ... lol!

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'women are trained at a young age to want a sensitive guy.'
    I mean that in many romantic movies, and kid's movies with romance elements, that I've seen, this thought process has existed with the heroine: "All the other guys I've liked have been jerks/meatheads/insensitive. But THIS one is DIFFERENT because HE is SENSITIVE." Either that, or the guy starts off as a meathead/jerk and embraces/reveals his sensitive side by the end, proving to all the girls in the audience that they just need to wait for that special, sensitive guy to come along...

    Examples:
    "She's The Man"
    "The Princess and the Frog"
    The Twilight Saga
    Most other movies where a guy "sweeps (the heroine) off her feet"

    Also, it seems like girls are taught in fairy stories that they should wait for their Prince Charming, who will sweep them off their feet and be romantic and loving and very, very Fe and Ni. Lol, I have an ENFJ friend who's convinced that Disney movies are meant to train girls to fall in love with gay guys. Of course, the ENFJ friend in question IS a gay guy, so...

    I think women, especially young or immature ones, are attracted to the exact opposite. That's why the stereotype exists that women like jerks. Some women will downright admit that they are attracted to arrogant, self-centered assholes; others will deny it. I think it would be accurate to say that...given the option between choosing a sensitive guy or a non-sensitive guy, most women would choose the latter even if they claim they would prefer the former.
    You're probably right. But the fact that so many women DO claim the former is what confuses me - especially when those women are often sensitive to the point that I feel like they'd need more of a tough guy to balance them out. (Not too tough a guy, though - I agree with you about the "exact opposite" thing.) Just like how, even though I think bad boys are pretty sexy, in terms of balancing out my personality and "completing me", so to speak, I'd probably need a slightly more emotion-savvy type of guy.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You're probably right. But the fact that so many women DO claim the former is what confuses me - especially when those women are often sensitive to the point that I feel like they'd need more of a tough guy to balance them out. (Not too tough a guy, though - I agree with you about the "exact opposite" thing.) Just like how, even though I think bad boys are pretty sexy, in terms of balancing out my personality and "completing me", so to speak, I'd probably need a slightly more emotion-savvy type of guy.
    He isn't probably right...he's very right.

    The reason is simple and this goes back to testosterone and the ability for the male to be male. Its the conditioning of society that does it like some of the films you've listed. The expectations are subconscious imprints of the mirroring behind society, our role models and the people we most look up to, we then tend to attract to those qualities, send out signals and mysteriously find our attraction drawn to those qualities that our subconscious triggers as most attractive.

    Based on biology too, very much, the person who can expand his territory most, the person who can fend off the most, acquire the most, position himself in the most influence tends to be seen in high regard. Its the ability to prove themselves in the eyes of their affection. Which goes back to the alpha, omega, beta subsets. You are most inclined towards certain behaviour traits than others simply put, because they are seen as healthy in your mind. What is seen as healthy you are attracted to. And sensitive is not seen as a healthy trait, more like a coping mechanism.

    Say from a physical point of view you'll find ripped abs to mean strength, fitness, fertility. The symbology behind these ideas are very much placed in the psyche and expressed outwardly. Like a piece of code, a genetic code in fact that could go back to original programming of survival of the fittest, healthiest, most mentally stable etc it would seem.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    Haha, girl, I'm your exception XD
    That's because you're a goblin.

  9. #89
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Female NTs. Don't think it's even close to be honest. If anything, the mature NF male is practically the female ideal. I'm mainly considering society's views on each though, comparing the difficulty of personal journeys really can't be done. The NT female may deal with the external pressure a bit better internally, but her path is considerably more difficult when compared against the NF male's, partly because he's still a male.



  10. #90
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    I disagree. In terms of workplace, gender equality has almost been reached, and an NT would have an easier time than an NF in most of these, due to their lack of emotiveness and ability to adopt a 'get the job done' mentality (though STs are better at that generally). Relationship wise, many men now like strong, independent women, but few women seem to like feeling men, as it is considered a feminine trait. Especially NFs, who can be considered dreamy or sometimes preachy.

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