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View Poll Results: Which group has more difficulty as it relates to gender norms, life, and society?

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  • Male NFs

    52 59.77%
  • Female NTs

    35 40.23%
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  1. #41
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

    It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


    NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

    When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!
    wouldn't that mostly be an NT trait though? I can see how it could work differently against an NT female as in she is expected to be more in tune with such things, but thats not really all that different from the situation an NF male is in... its just an inverse, the only difference I believe is that in terms of love and relationships and stuff, the NT female suffers whereas the NF male does extra well... however on the inverse again, being an NF male in a competitive job market is a major downer and very distressing because of inter office politics and stuff, I have noticed NT females thrive like a bastard in those situations.

    I am still trying to get my head around the sink or swim thing though, you mean you have to figure out how to unnaturally act around all these touchy feely doofuses? and if you dont learn you are destined to be a cat lady?

    I can see how that would be distressing.

    On the same token, NF males have to learn to control thier major cling factor and constant barrage of insecurities. If I acted out on all my nuttyness and did what came natural I would call my girl 20 times a day pumping her for info, reassurance etc...

    hmmm I dunno, the thing I see though is that if I stay out of the corporate worker world I tend to thrive amoungst people in my relationships, I can see where an outspoken NT female might not do quite as well, which is why I voted for NT females in this poll :P
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  2. #42
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

    It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


    NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

    When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!
    I have no idea what you're talking about. I was never interested in girly things and never saw any reason to pretend to be. *shrug*
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  3. #43
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

    It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


    NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

    When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!
    i'm having trouble seeing your developmental model.

    that the stakes for learning F at a young age, or you miss your developmental window to have any semblance of a relational self?

    but learning T at a young age, there's really no window for when you need to get an at least functional semblance of causal expectation?

    i think most people feel blind in some way or another at age 12. by the time i was in h.s. i was extremely brooding. i missed a huge developmental period by pretty much withdrawing from everyone and everything.

    but i'm a 5w4, sx/sp, at 20 my w4 kicked in and i learned about the self, at 24 i realized some weak semblance of an so instinct, developed Fe, felt more like a complete human being, recognized the existence of Ti, etc.

    is there something more than feeling like an outcast during middle school and high school that i'm missing? is it less damaging for nf males to completely withdraw than nt females? is there something far worse than withdrawal that only happens in these situations? what is it, and why does it happen to nt females more?

  4. #44
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    I'm going to say NT females (or really all T females) simply by virtue of the fact of patriarchy.
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  5. #45

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    You might want to exclude the ENFs, because male ENFPs and ENFJs normally have it pretty good. They suffer near the least of the male types.
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  6. #46
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about. I was never interested in girly things and never saw any reason to pretend to be. *shrug*
    The particular incident I cited happened on the volleyball court when our team was in a tournament, split in two to maximize playing time. We had no subs and she stormed off the court in a drama queen meltdown.

    I have no idea what you're talking about when you say this relates to girly things. This is just life for the non-alienated T female. (I think we reached general consensus on this topic on TypeC when it was still MBTIc a few years ago.)
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  7. #47
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i'm having trouble seeing your developmental model.

    that the stakes for learning F at a young age, or you miss your developmental window to have any semblance of a relational self?

    but learning T at a young age, there's really no window for when you need to get an at least functional semblance of causal expectation?

    i think most people feel blind in some way or another at age 12. by the time i was in h.s. i was extremely brooding. i missed a huge developmental period by pretty much withdrawing from everyone and everything.

    but i'm a 5w4, sx/sp, at 20 my w4 kicked in and i learned about the self, at 24 i realized some weak semblance of an so instinct, developed Fe, felt more like a complete human being, recognized the existence of Ti, etc.

    is there something more than feeling like an outcast during middle school and high school that i'm missing? is it less damaging for nf males to completely withdraw than nt females? is there something far worse than withdrawal that only happens in these situations? what is it, and why does it happen to nt females more?
    It's not a well-formulated model, other than believing that girls have a sink or swim culture, and it comes in junior high. Being on the social outskirts for a female considerably narrows and restricts access to developmental opportunities.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  8. #48
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    You might want to exclude the ENFs, because male ENFPs and ENFJs normally have it pretty good. They suffer near the least of the male types.
    should really be a infx men vs. nt (excluding entp) woman thread
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  9. #49
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Males NFs because thay are easily considered as effeminate and it's a shame in our society.
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  10. #50
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    The particular incident I cited happened on the volleyball court when our team was in a tournament, split in two to maximize playing time. We had no subs and she stormed off the court in a drama queen meltdown.

    I have no idea what you're talking about when you say this relates to girly things. This is just life for the non-alienated T female. (I think we reached general consensus on this topic on TypeC when it was still MBTIc a few years ago.)
    I still have no idea what you're talking about.
    Why was it necessary for you to swim with the tide? /fly with the colony?
    Also, I don't see how it's any easier for an INT male to fit in at school than it is for an INT female. If anything, it seems to be more difficult for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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