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View Poll Results: Which group has more difficulty as it relates to gender norms, life, and society?

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  • Male NFs

    52 59.77%
  • Female NTs

    35 40.23%
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  1. #31
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    female NTs by a long shot
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #32
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    I think female NT's do, because they want to be taken seriously and many men just wont ever give them that satisfaction, whereas as a male NF I can bond with anyone, STs, NFs, NTs SFs whatever, yeah it may be annoying to have to hide a lot of my emotional side because people will make fun of me for it, but I am adept at wearing differnt skins in public to protect my gooey core all the time anyway, plus I am not a sissy so people dont try to mess with me.

    I find that my NFness is what really gets people to open up and connect with me, i would never look at it like a curse, its a gift actually.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #33
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    females may feel more disjointed at the idea of being socially ostracized than males. but like jennifer said, nt types don't have to worry about creating a space for themselves to get paid. and the financial pressure of the future and the world of work and blah blah what are you gonna do weighs heavily on us.

    nf males often times wander/flail around and don't figure out what they need to do for a long time. but at 26, after being pretty awful with people for the first 23 years of my life, i'm confident that ill always be valuable as a skilled people problem-solver.

    as far as gender expectations, both are hit equally hard. after that it's just causal power vs relationship power. there's stress associated with--and perceived lack--in both cases.
    I'm not just talking about being socially ostracized--I'm talking about development of the self. If the young NT female sinks early on because she is too disoriented by the social environment (because she isn't following the herd, but she also hasn't yet finished cutting through the bush to clear her own path to get there) she's sunk.

    She's been ostracized from the primary resources that broaden and build one's (intellectual/social/etc.) self, period. To be cut off in one's formative years from the main veins through which one acquires these resources is consequential. It's a critical period, in the developmental psychology sense of the term. These years are formative for self-esteem, intellectual development, forming contacts and peer groups that engender personal development . . .

    Males simply don't have this sink or swim situation, or at least theirs comes many years later. And if males have it I don't think it is nearly as holistic a hurdle, it is more categorical, like you say, for work.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #34
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ good points
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #35
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    females may feel more disjointed at the idea of being socially ostracized than males. but like jennifer said, nt types don't have to worry about creating a space for themselves to get paid. and the financial pressure of the future and the world of work and blah blah what are you gonna do weighs heavily on us.

    nf males often times wander/flail around and don't figure out what they need to do for a long time. but at 26, after being pretty awful with people for the first 23 years of my life, i'm confident that ill always be valuable as a skilled people problem-solver.

    as far as gender expectations, both are hit equally hard. after that it's just causal power vs relationship power. there's stress associated with--and perceived lack--in both cases.


    I will grant that INFJ Males for example are typically late bloomers for everything, but mid 20's onward as they begin to unravel that great mystery "who am I and why do I act like I do?" they start to get really really sharp. This stage of my life at 29 I am doing things I thought were impossible when I was 20, or even 26... its awesome. The combo of using Ni + Fe in conjunction with Ti and seeing it all as a big picture makes a sort of psuedo social Te which I have been using to marshall resources and peoples skills and dude, its undeniably an incredibly gift. Problem solving, thats one thing you can call it, its so much deeper then that though.

    Being an INFJ I thought for a long time was a curse, I was so neurotic and constantly worried about who I am and how I am affecting the people around me and what my purpose was...

    now all that abstract thinking, the always needing to question and understand things are coming together and paying off majorly. being an INFJ is like hitting the lottery, literally.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  6. #36
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I'm not just talking about being socially ostracized--I'm talking about development of the self. If the young NT female sinks early on because she is too disoriented by the social environment (because she isn't following the herd, but she also hasn't yet finished cutting through the bush to clear her own path to get there) she's sunk.

    She's been ostracized from the primary resources that broaden and build one's (intellectual/social/etc.) self, period. To be cut off in one's formative years from the main veins through which one acquires these resources is consequential. It's a critical period, in the developmental psychology sense of the term. These years are formative for self-esteem, intellectual development, forming contacts and peer groups that engender personal development . . .

    Males simply don't have this sink or swim situation, or at least theirs comes many years later. And if males have it I don't think it is nearly as holistic a hurdle, it is more categorical, like you say, for work.

    I personally believe NT females have it harder then NF males but I am not sure what you mean by sink or swim.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  7. #37
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    It's still easier for NF males to make it than it is for NT females. Ask Hillary and Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #38
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It's still easier for NF males to make it than it is for NT females. Ask Hillary and Obama.
    Yep.

  9. #39
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I personally believe NT females have it harder then NF males but I am not sure what you mean by sink or swim.
    I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

    It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


    NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

    When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #40
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I heart ENTP chicks!!

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