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  1. #21
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is "deep" superior to "shallow"?
    No.

    The real difference is that Xe is shared, while Xi is kept to oneself. The "depth" is something of an illusion. The truth is that Xi is unexpressed, and it requires effort to perceive it in others. What will happen is that Ni doms appear remarkably insightful, because they don't show how they figured something out, and will quickly change their answer if they learn they're wrong, often without you knowing. Fi doms will appear remarkably wise, because you don't know how much foolishness they kept hidden. Si doms will remember a remarkable amount of detail, but often misremember things and you will be none the wiser. Ti doms can be brilliantly logical, but you'll often not know how many completely stupid ideas they also believe, because they don't express them clearly enough to be evaluated.

    Xe seems shallow because it can be publicly evaluated, and thus one's foolishness is visible for all the world to see.

    Better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

  2. #22
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is "deep" superior to "shallow"?
    No. You need both. A deep udnerstanding of something which does not lead to empirical immediate benefits in practice to others, is ultimately socially useless.

    Just as you cannot answer peoples immediate problems, long-term, without a deep understanding of the root causes.

    So both "shallowness" without "depth" and "depth" without "shallowness" are socially useless.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #23
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It has been decided that deeper is a better term.
    This was the missing link between your OP and the issue. In general, people do use "deep" as a positive adjective, but in the functions, "deep" functions have their rewards as well as their consequences.

    Fi can feel delightful, but it can feel horrible when trapped and drowning. Ti can give such a complete understanding, but it can also leave a web of logic impossible to reconcile in its threads that come so close to tying together, and yet not meet. (Something like that)

    It is fun to immerse in the deep things, but deep places are that much more difficult to escape.

    I agree that Extroverted functions are broad (Te, Se, Ne, Fe), whereas Introverted functions are deep (Fi, Ti, Ni, Si).
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #24
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is "deep" superior to "shallow"?
    It really depends on the context. My views align with cimarron and tcda.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No.

    The real difference is that Xe is shared, while Xi is kept to oneself.
    I understand the temptation to say this, but is it really true?

    Is Fi always kept to oneself?
    Is Ti always kept to oneself?
    Is Ni always kept to oneself?
    Is Si always kept to oneself?

    I think not...

    I think that I share my Ni insights and my Fi feelings all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The "depth" is something of an illusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The truth is that Xi is unexpressed, and it requires effort to perceive it in others.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What will happen is that Ni doms appear remarkably insightful, because they don't show how they figured something out, and will quickly change their answer if they learn they're wrong, often without you knowing. Fi doms will appear remarkably wise, because you don't know how much foolishness they kept hidden. Si doms will remember a remarkable amount of detail, but often misremember things and you will be none the wiser. Ti doms can be brilliantly logical, but you'll often not know how many completely stupid ideas they also believe, because they don't express them clearly enough to be evaluated.
    I think these are simply examples of Xi functions at their worst.

    While understanding them at their worst is necessary to understand them as a whole, emphasizing just the worst is to miss the truth by overstating the bad.

    I'm sure there's some kind of pretentious latin term for why that's a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Xe seems shallow because it can be publicly evaluated, and thus one's foolishness is visible for all the world to see.

    Better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.


    I dunno about this entire post...

    I feel like you're trying to make the argument for why shallow is not worse than deep by making the depth of Xi seem more fraudulent than it is, and downplaying the shallowness of Xe by stating that it's simply for public consumption.

    I think that there is a material difference between the depth of Xi and Xe functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    No. You need both. A deep udnerstanding of something which does not lead to empirical immediate benefits in practice to others, is ultimately socially useless.

    Just as you cannot answer peoples immediate problems, long-term, without a deep understanding of the root causes.

    So both "shallowness" without "depth" and "depth" without "shallowness" are socially useless.
    I think this is the most accurate answer so far...

    Could we say that the deeper, more self-oriented functions are more important for getting into the depths of their particular subject matter, while the shallower, more community-oriented functions are more important for sharing the subject matter with one another?

    Is this an apt way to express the truth, or could the terminology be improved upon? If so, how?

  6. #26
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Doesn't make a lot of sense, we all have both introverted and extroverted functions. Where are you going with this, is this just continuing an argument with someone in the forum?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Doesn't make a lot of sense, we all have both introverted and extroverted functions.
    Did somebody claim we didn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Where are you going with this, is this just continuing an argument with someone in the forum?
    No. I'm simply trying to come to a definitive understanding of the pro's and con's of Xe and Xi functions.

    And you're not really helping.

  8. #28
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    Lemme see, lemme think...

    My thoughts:

    I'm an NeFi dom-user-thingy-dingy.

    Holistically, both functions render, dare I say, an insurmountable depth.

    But, Fi, infused with my Ne, takes me to places, thoughts, ideas, feelings that, dare I say, alienate me from others.

    Ne is my processing machine, Fi is my soul.

    So, I guess you can say my Fi soul is "deeper" than the Ne processing machine that fuels/facilitates it.

    My Fi is all about depth, and my Ne is all about breadth, lateral thinking, analogous thinking.

    But my Fi is something that has a base, and through life, and experience, grows, deeper, richer, and more complex, hahahaha, or simple.

    Fi has a highly nuanced depth that strives for essentials, for simplicity, for core truths.

    I digress...

    Anyhow, I dunno.

    I do think that you are on to something here.

    But once again, I think/know/feel/believe that both my Ne and my Fi are inextricably connected.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #29
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    wow an INTJ wrote this go figure
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #30
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    Just for you, Sim...

    Just. For. You.


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