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  1. #11
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    prove an INTP wrong about something... or try to... come back and let me see how THAT turns out for you...
    I see your point. They're both defensive on their own subjective subjects.

  2. #12
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I think of like a wild animal cornered or something. It feels under attack. Vulnerable.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #13
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Fi is defensive about deeply held beliefs and the validity of its perspective. It tends to lash out when central beliefs are dismissed or attacked. Fi also tends to get upset when the personhood of others isn't respected.

    If Ti hates idiots, Fi hates cruel and/or dismissive assholes.

    When attacked, Fi usually retreats or questions the emotional/moral integrity of the attacker. If pushed, may use Fi-based insights to go for the soft emotional underbelly of the attacker.
    This is a good summary of the Fi side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I see your point. They're both defensive on their own subjective subjects.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I think of like a wild animal cornered or something. It feels under attack. Vulnerable.
    There is something to this. I think it hinges on functional attitude.

    The four introverted functions are Fi, Ti, Ni and Si. Each and every one of them is defensive. Trying to convince someone relying on these functions of anything is often futile: the best tactic is to appeal to a complementary extroverted function.

    Fi gets defensive about feelings. It is nigh-impossible to verbalize feelings for this function, and one often has to rely on Te or Ne or Se to do so. Each venue slightly garbles what Fi really is saying.

    Ti is very similar. It will absorb knowledge and information like crazy, but any attempt to force such absorption is resisted. When asked what they think, it can come out negatively through Fe (opinionated), Ne (scatterbrained), or Se (not sure of a good example for this one, perhaps some degree of violence). The main thing is that like Fi, it is not easily verbalized.

    Ni, even though a perceiving, rather than a judging function, has elements of the above, too. It is perhaps not as obvious an example, because Ni-doms are rare, and since it's a perceiving function, one finds oneself interacting with Te or Fe, not Ni. However, when an extroverted function is unavailable to translate Ni, Ni becomes very confused, almost cassandraesque, able to foretell doom, but no one will believe because there is no demonstrable reason to believe. It is very difficult to disabuse an Ni-dom of his or her intuitive perceptions. There is this internalized feeling that whatever it is they intuit, it has to be true, they just aren't sure "how" it is true, yet.

    Similarly, Si hides behind Te and Fe, but is a bit more prominent as Keirsey noticed for temperaments: SJs are all Si dom/aux. What I've noticed here is that aside from the typical Keirsey SJ observations, Si is very sure of one's own internal representation of reality. For lack of a better word, call this "memory." There is a tendency of Si to "remember" things that aren't actually true, and it can be difficult without hard evidence to convince them otherwise. This is not to imply that dom/aux Si users don't admit to not remembering certain things, but rather, they are very very sure of what they do believe they remember. I was married to an ESFJ for several years. Her memory was astounding and I often relied on it. When she started using it as a weapon against me, I noticed its flaws: mainly that she seemed to have an internal construct with its own rules, and some of those rules didn't jibe with reality, so she wouldn't remember things that didn't concur with the rules. (This is, of course, a somewhat biased point on my part ... I'm not trying to make Si appear bad, but rather to express "how it fails when it fails".)

    In all of these cases, the essence of the disagreement, the reason of the defensiveness, is all introverted, internalized and virtually excluded from verbalization. The other functions try to verbalize it, but fail, leaving out key elements of the introverted understanding. The result is "defensiveness."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #14
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi gets defensive about feelings. It is nigh-impossible to verbalize feelings for this function, and one often has to rely on Te or Ne or Se to do so. Each venue slightly garbles what Fi really is saying.
    This is why I don't argue with trolls on the internet.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Why is Fi so defensive? Why are Fi users so sensitive when you question Fi?
    How does it defend itself?
    Its very rare to see a defensive Fi reveal what it is that its defending against. It generally comes out in a manner opposite of how it feels.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Why is Ti so defensive? Why are Ti users so sensitive when you question Ti?
    How does Ti defend itself?
    I would guess that Ti is similiar in that it goes down a path opposite of what it thinks.

    The manner in which I defend myself using Ti is to allow logic to back itself up in every direction or path that is possible. Because I dont use it in a defensive manner I allow it to go down paths that may or may not prove itself wrong. The scariest part of Ti paths is that it is extremely revealing in regard to experiences.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #16
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    unfortunatly, this does not explain way too many of the younger ENTPs on the board
    It seems Ne just leads to obnoxiousness in some cases....
    When INTPs seem more moderate than you, it's time to take a step back....

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Its very rare to see a defensive Fi reveal what it is that its defending against. It generally comes out in a manner opposite of how it feels.
    This is pretty insightful and why most arguments used with Fi-doms rarely budge their stance. The person really has no idea what they are arguing against and their presumption will simply make the Fi-dom retreat further inward. In a sense, it is actually very effective at protecting core values, because it steers people miles away from them.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #17
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Why is Fi so defensive? Why are Fi users so sensitive when you question Fi?

    Why is Ti so defensive? Why are Ti users so sensitive when you question Ti?
    As properties of introverted judgment, those functions resist being affected by external demands, and may lash-out with the assistance of a complimentary Je function to preserve the inner sanctity of their system.

    The best way to approach Ji is to allow it enough time to process contradictory ideas, and internalize the information in a way that is consistent with the existing ones. If used in moderation, or in the right moments, Ji can provide a reliable constant for the extroverted functions like Pe and Je, that changes on a situational basis.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

    Enneagram: Tritype - 1w9, 5 (balanced wings), 2w3; Overall Variant: So/Sx
    SLOAN: rCoa|I|
    Functional Preferences: Ni, Te/Fi, Ti, Se, Fe, Si, Ne


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Looking into the eyes of a [Ni user] is like peeking through a portal into a parallel universe.

  8. #18
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    prove an INTP wrong about something... or try to... come back and let me see how THAT turns out for you...
    Simply create a contradiction between two statements/values etc. Create one and the INTP is forced to choose one, thus conceding. This is by far the quickest and simplest way to win an argument against me.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
    5 so/sp
    Chaotic Neutral/Evil

  9. #19
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    "Why is Fi so defensive? Why are Fi users so sensitive when you question Fi? How does it defend itself?"

    Fi- users are defensive because it is a highly important part of us, a combination of principles that we have thought long and hard about, and argued back and forth within ourselves about. Before we bring it to public scrutiny, we have already considered all of the variables and have developed a firm stance, behind the idea that people needs to develop a position. I mean, sure, the other side of the argument holds some water but the bottom line is!... I don't have some odd, overly emotional attachments to a teddy bear and want everyone else to back down. Fi is subjective and personal and surrounds social problems, but not completely without reasonable reasoning. It is not just about whimsical 'feelings' but morals, principals, hypocrisy...problems with the opposition's logic.

    (for a simple example. i haven't worked out all the logistics and morality of this argument.) Say I am against the idea of invading a stable country to bring it 'freedom' because the bottom line is that it is causing massive casualties and destruction of stable infrastructure of their economy, education, health, etc without the means of rebuilding at the same pace, whether the damages are intentional or not. I can back that up with the rationale of hypocritical and selfish government policies, etc, etc. I might defend it by painting a scenario for you, such as: your child was in the market the other day and got blown up into five different pieces, how does freedom feel?

    If you blatantly disregard my carefully constructed principle, then you are insulting me in some way because you are undermining my ability to string my ideas together and support it, as if I am doing it for some useless fun, and in my eyes, you lost the basic principles of humanity that you are supposed to have.

    Something like that. Fi-Ne can see hypocrisy and irony from a mile away.

  10. #20
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The manner in which I defend myself using Ti is to allow logic to back itself up in every direction or path that is possible. Because I dont use it in a defensive manner I allow it to go down paths that may or may not prove itself wrong. The scariest part of Ti paths is that it is extremely revealing in regard to experiences.
    I don't see solid defense or offensive use of Ti.

    I know when I have been asked or feel backed into a corner where I have to explain my motivations in order to clear a situation up or I *care* about doing so I am both defensive and offensive at the same time. Kind of like punching someone in the face while asking them to stop hurting you. It's really uncomfortable for the exact and excellent point Poki made in that last sentence.

    Ti explained is Ti displayed.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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