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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm working on the premise that if something made invidiuals dysfunctional, then a society full of these dysfuncitonal individuals is in trouble.
    Ok, well I guess we're talking about different things then.

    I was working from the approach that if you removed individuals who used those functions (and, most specifically, those who used them in the dominant position), what would happen to society?

    I can see the value of your approach, though.

    It is another understandable way to approach the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'll focus on Se. Without Se you lack a basic capicity to react to external concrete details/stimulus/information what-have-you. Without that, what can you? I hate to answer a question with a question, but how would Ne take over for Se?
    I've recently had this discussion with SillySapienne and Simulated World, and we arrived at a different conclusion.

    I don't think lacking Se means one can't "react to external concrete details/stimulus/information what-have-you".

    I don't think lacking Se means one no longer has sensory perceptions.

    Rather, I think of Se as a disposition.

    It's a way one orients oneself to the world, specifically with regard to how one prefers to perceive incoming data.

    All human beings have sensory perceptions.

    Se doms (and heavy users in general) just prefer to deal with incoming data in a more concrete, sensory-oriented way.

    That is: they don't like to, or don't have much ability to, absorb the incoming data and see many abstract connections within it.

    Hence why I feel that, in many ways, Ne is Se plus abstract connection-making.

    (aside: although, I was just thinking about whether the same holds true for Ni and Si, and, at first, I felt that it didn't, as I believe Si does make connections, but, on second thought, maybe these connections are not abstract connections, but concrete connections, and, thus, the same thing can be said for Se, that it makes concrete connections; but, then, that got me thinking on the difference between concreteness and abstractness, which, I am sure, will now be a major question in my thinking over the next couple of days...)

    I know your position, and you could stick to your ground there I suppose, but I do believe it's a difficult position to maintain...

    Same goes for Ti.

    I don't think one need use Ti to be able to ratiocinate.

    I just think those who prefer to use Ti more tend to make their decisions based more on ratiocination.

    Remember, this is personality theory, not the basis of our entire neurological happenings (unless, of course, you want to make the argument that it is, which, as I said before, I'm open to, but I think is a very difficult position to maintain).

  2. #72
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Unless you are aware of the details you can't improvise worth shit, they are inextricably linked, and therefore one, or something like that.
    I dunno, I kinda suck at noticing details (I do love sensory experiences though) and I love improvising.
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  3. #73
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    ^ Explains your lack of knowledge of detailed MBTI.

  4. #74
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think lacking Se means one can't "react to external concrete details/stimulus/information what-have-you".

    I don't think lacking Se means one no longer has sensory perceptions.

    Rather, I think of Se as a disposition.

    It's a way one orients oneself to the world, specifically with regard to how one prefers to perceive incoming data.
    Hmmm, not sure if this is a good example, but I prefer to read a book than to watch a movie based on the book.

    Se would be like watching a movie where you know exactly what a character, object, scene looks like. Ne would keep things abstract. I may not even care what the hero looks like and if I read the book multiple times, it might even change every time.

    That sounds logical?
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  5. #75
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    On the fly analysis and improvisation is Ne. Se is detail awareness.
    Look man, gear shifting theories ultimately fail. World view theories dont. Im sick and tired of explaining this to people on the forum. THEY ARE WORLD VIEWS, NOT SKILL SETS.

    A Ne person is a schemer, they can pay attention to details or not, thats not the point! Ne is not about seeing the possibilities on the micro, its about on the macro level: "live one day at a time, take out a big loan, have no plan, it will all be fine! we'll figure something out to make it work out..."

    think BIG PICTURE, not day to day tasks. That goes for EVERY world view. If a Fe person happens to wave to somebody thats not "engaging Fe", because again that would be MICRO. Instead, that person might be a Fe because on a MACRO, they see their existence as one that has loyalties and dis-loyalties.

    EDIT:
    "well babylon, who made you the authority on this?"
    --look, if gear shifting theories fail, then all we are left with are world view theories, all I've done is shortened some of the better world view theory descriptors that I've ever read. Philosophical Exegesis

  6. #76
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    ^I don't see why it can't be explained with macro and micro (to use your terms) examples. And I'd hesitate to call typology a world view. Because as we approach individuation (hopefully we are on that journey), we utilize different functions and ways of being, so that we are shifting in how we gather and process data; and a world view encompasses so much more than that.

    Worldview definition:

    A comprehensive world view (or worldview) is the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing natural philosophy, fundamental existential and normative postulates or themes, values, emotions, and ethics.[1] The term is a loan translation or calque of German Weltanschauung [ˈvɛlt.ʔanˌʃaʊ.ʊŋ] ( listen), composed of Welt, 'world', and Anschauung, 'view' or 'outlook'. It is a concept fundamental to German philosophy and epistemology and refers to a wide world perception. Additionally, it refers to the framework of ideas and beliefs through which an individual interprets the world and interacts with it.
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  7. #77
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    ^I don't see why it can't be explained with macro and micro (to use your terms) examples. And I'd hesitate to call typology a world view. Because as we approach individuation (hopefully we are on that journey), we utilize different functions and ways of being, so that we are shifting in how we gather and process data; and a world view encompasses so much more than that.

    Worldview definition:
    I have nothing against that definition of world view... in fact I smiled when they mentioned German epistemology and philosophy (Jung was a big Kant fan ). The problem aphro is that if we go by micro examples, the theory falls on its face. I don't have time right now to give a long winded example, but I will later.

  8. #78
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I have nothing against that definition of world view... in fact I smiled when they mentioned German epistemology and philosophy (Jung was a big Kant fan ). The problem aphro is that if we go by micro examples, the theory falls on its face. I don't have time right now to give a long winded example, but I will later.
    I'm not saying to go predominantly by micro examples or anything like that, but one doesn't need to be a typology nazi when it comes to interpreting the cognitive functions and how they work, especially considering how little we really know about them, need one?
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  9. #79
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Functional world views are basically what Jung detailed in Psychological Types.



  10. #80
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    And as the discoverer of typology, he would. I'd hesitate to put that much stock in one way of viewing the world however, especially one that is just scratching the surface of the human psyche.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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