User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 57

  1. #31
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    I too think it's a combination of genetics and environment. I think I may have inherited my ExxP temperament from my mother, but I was raised in an overwhelmingly SJ environment (away from her for the most part...I mean really hardly around her at all) where I was encouraged to read constantly, do well in school, and have traditional values. I was also around my grandparents in an older, more stable and affluent part of their life than my mother was in her own childhood. I think this is why my Si is so developed for an xNFP. I am actually kind of conservative compared to my biological mother, and I'm certainly more theoretical and abstract. I attribute a lot of my personality to my upbringing, but I do agree that I share my mother's ExxP temperament and that my sisters display some aspect of her personality but the one who spent the most time away from my mother (aside from me) is an ENFJ and also more "conservative" than my mother (though not really conservative in any real sense of the word.)

    In fact, I decided to come back and edit this and elaborate...my ENFJ sister was heavily, heavily influenced by her ESFJ paternal aunt...which is why I say she seems more "conservative" and very well may be the reason she's an Fe dom. My EnFP sister who spent the majority of her development with my mom leans more toward ESFP (like my mother) while I lean more toward INFP (probably due to Si influence). My ISFj sister (who also spent larger amounts of time actually being raised by my mother) definitely has Fe and Si, but she's a "soft J" making her seem almost xSFP at times...like my mother.

    And when I say I'm more conservative than my mother (don't laugh, seriously, I am), I don't just mean she's a batshit crazy unstable person (um, which she was for the majority of my childhood which is why she didn't raise me...my dad was her first husband, and my sisters' father was her second husband, which is why they spent more time with her)...I mean she's STILL now that she's older and more stable stupidly permissive with children, lacks discipline toward herself and others, and her political values are actually more "bleeding heart" liberal than mine, because she doesn't temper it with any real logic or value for personal responsibility at all. I attribute this to somewhat unhealthy and definitely out-of-control Se/Fi, because basically she's always done what seemed right to her in the moment without a great deal of foresight, and I'm not saying all ESFPs are like this so don't take it as that. But yeah.

    Nurture over nature FTW.

  2. #32
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Do you mean that Ni passes on to Se? Same with Fi to Te? Can you elaborate on your logic here? Or is it just a trend you've noticed?

    This seems counterintuitive, and not what I've observed, but I think it would be interesting to see how the data falls out. Perhaps in some families where there seems no link between parents/children, there WILL be a strong correlation between grandparents/children.
    Hmmm-well it really is a whole lotta Ne honestly. It just seems like there may be patterns but it is complicated to tease apart.

    I would avoid MBTI and look at functions. The trends I noted are what I see in mine and my ex husbands family. I mapped it out by functions and could start to see the trends I mentioned-but the data is exceptionally sparse-just teases.

    I'd expect the functions would be groups of SNPs that are inherited together, if I had to guess. But given there do seem to be certain ways of using these functions that are a bit more innate-at least for the dom and aux-it kind points to some sort of expression and repression that occur to form the pairs. I would be very interested in the role of enviornmental stress on the mother and epigentics in the eventual way the innate type is expressed. Under long term stress cortisol levels will be increased. This will alter other hormone levels likely due to modulation of gene expression or maybe methylation of dna, thus reducing transcription, but damn I am out of date on the molecular biology. So innate type but strong effect of the enviornment on the type expression perhaps?

    Poki-isnt your dad Intj and your son intj? I think that is where Ni/Se correlations kinda mimiced by husbands family but who knows.

    Some interesting links about innate type preferences in children:

    Carlow University - Carlow Journal
    The PEOPLE Process

  3. #33
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Enneagram
    9w8 so/sx
    Posts
    11,544

    Default

    Type genetics seems like a stretch for me. But anyhoo;

    Mum: FeSiNeTi
    Dad: FiNeSiTe

    Both Ne-Si users, yet all my siblings are Ni-Se users.

    Bro: TeNiSeFi
    Sis: FiSeNiTe
    Sis: NiFeTiSe

    Me: NeTiFeSi

  4. #34
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    6,727

    Default

    My type: ISFP
    mother: INFJ
    father: INTJ
    my son: ESTP
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

    The SP Spazz Youtube Channel

  5. #35
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILE Ti
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Mom: ENFP
    Dad: INTJ

    Mom's mom: ESFJ
    Mom's dad: INTP

    Dad's mom: INFP
    Dad's dad: ENTJ

    Mom's sister: ESFJ
    Cousins (Oldest to youngest): ESTJ, ESFJ, INTP, ENFP

    Dad's siblings (oldest to youngest): ISTJ, INFP, INTP, ESFJ
    Last edited by Aleksei; 04-23-2010 at 08:19 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  6. #36
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    451 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFj Ni
    Posts
    5,651

    Default

    Thanks to everyone who has posted so far!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    I am not debating, because I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject, but, how would you account for my N, which is quite strong?

    I am genuinely curious on your thoughts.
    I'm not debating either. Just curious. I have no idea where your N came from. My personal opinion is that people's genes are largely responsible for their personality types, therefore must 'come' from somewhere in your recent line, barring some bizarre childhood or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    You have a belief that's based largely on personal experience, and while this may be a convincing argument for you, it's not enough for me. There have been a number of cases of adopted children being similar, in regards to personality, to their biological parents, but there also have been a number of cases where the children are more like their adoptive parents, in regards to personality.
    I haven't even delved into studies yet. As is typical of Ni, I'm starting with my own experience>combining it with observation>attempting some primitive data gathering to see if I can see a pattern>and now if I don't find something better to think about, will probably start studying up on it.

    The nature vs. nurture debate is not obsolete. You seem to be overly willing to make it so, however.
    That's just my bias showing. If I didn't have bias, or stated that I didn't have bias in this situation, it would be a fallacious statement, because obviously I do, since most of my opinion involves my personal experiences. I simply see it so clearly, that I forget there are real divergent opinions on the matter. But, yeah, even in my own family, 33% think it's nurture, and 66% think it's nature over nurture. I'm not sure of the general public's opinion on it. Probably about even, I'd guess. I'll even go so far as to say I'm about 85% nature effects/15% nurture effects, given a normal environment. So that's where I personally stand on the issue.

    Phenotype = genotype + environment

    I'm not denying that genes have some influence on our personality. I'm just more inclined to believe that environment plays a larger role in the phenotype variable than does the genotype (and if not larger, then perhaps equal).
    Yes, thanks for stating that relationship in straightforward terms. I think it also needs to be said that, well, I'll let this statement say if for me (from wikipedia):

    Despite its seemingly straightforward definition, the concept of the phenotype has some hidden subtleties. First, most of the molecules and structures coded by the genetic material are not visible in the appearance of an organism, yet they are observable (for example by Western blotting) and are thus part of the phenotype. Human blood groups are an example. So, by extension, the term phenotype must include characteristics that can be made visible by some technical procedure. Another extension adds behaviour to the phenotype since behaviours are also observable characteristics.
    And

    Simple single-celled eukaryotes have relatively small amounts of such DNA, whereas the genomes of complex multicellular organisms, including humans, contain an absolute majority of DNA without an identified function.
    My point being that we are an accumulation of a lot more genetic material than is ever apparent, and scientists think that certain conditions might elicit expression of some of that 'hidden' DNA, which could also (my own pov next>) eventually account for the effects termed 'nurture.' But, even so, we cannot just take phenotype and say anything not readily observable in a parent or other close relative means it comes from environment, which can be a temptation for many, especially those biased toward nurture>nature.


    The study that you posted corroborates that there is a link between a gene and a particular neurochemical phenotype, and that there exists a trend in the way this neurochemistry manifests as a particular psychological trait.

    I certainly agree that neurochemistry and psychological traits go hand-in-hand and that neurochemical phenotypes have strong genetic ties. I'm just skeptical that neurochemistry is the primary causal factor associated with the personalities that we grow to possess.
    Why are you skeptical of that? I'm especially interested in your scientific assessment since you work/study in this realm, but personal is good as well.


    If one is raised by two parents that hold certain beliefs/values and possess certain personality traits, then social indoctrination (a result of the environment, rather than genetics), could theoretically influence one's personality. Thus, analyzing parent's personalities as a way to discern genetic relationships among personality is a bit inconclusive. Is the correlation between the offspring's personality and the parent's personality due to traits being passed on via internal pressures (genes), or is it due to traits being passed on via external pressures? (And again, obviously this question is moot in cases like yours, as the external pressure variable and the internal pressure variable are separated.)
    Exactly. That's why they like to look to adopted children and twins to hold those variables a bit more stable than would normally be possible. Surely in your travels around the science department you know of studies that corroborate or refute nature over nurture debate.



    Not really. No one in that list has Ti, so if I'm getting it from genetics, then where is it coming from?

    Although there is a strong "inheritance" of Fi among my mother's side of the family. Maternal grandmother has Fi in the top 2 and so do her two children.
    Well, it could be coming from anywhere, couldn't it. I have seen quite a few Ne doms (mainly Ti aux though) who can't seem to trace their Ne/Ti to any/many close relatives, mainly parents. Perhaps there is a facet to Ne that is more promoted by environmental influence, perhaps it is repressed more easily, and then seemingly appears out of nowhere, or perhaps it (by the nurture theory) is just cultivated by external events.


    I certainly hope you're open to the idea that not all personality traits come from our genes...
    No, I definitely think other factors are involved, but that they mainly become players when a normal loving environment is tampered with. I believe by default, a genetic organism (in this case a person) will inherently be a product of his genes, down to his mannerisms, expressions, cognitive functions, and basic mindset. I think ego plays a huge role in all our personalities, but, again, when that ego development has been screwed up for some reason. If a person has not had a normal development physically and emotionally in his primary developmental years (<20y.o), then he will manifest the fullest expression of his innate genotype, inasmuch as possible. If there is some need to survive, whether physically or emotionally, then, of course, that person will bend to whatever external pressures exist. I will propose, however, that even how the person flexes, the nuances of that, is probably an inherent mechanism at play that is normally dormant. That's why I still believe we are like 85-90% nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I too think it's a combination of genetics and environment. I think I may have inherited my ExxP temperament from my mother, but I was raised in an overwhelmingly SJ environment (away from her for the most part...I mean really hardly around her at all) where I was encouraged to read constantly, do well in school, and have traditional values. I was also around my grandparents in an older, more stable and affluent part of their life than my mother was in her own childhood. I think this is why my Si is so developed for an xNFP. I am actually kind of conservative compared to my biological mother, and I'm certainly more theoretical and abstract. I attribute a lot of my personality to my upbringing, but I do agree that I share my mother's ExxP temperament and that my sisters display some aspect of her personality but the one who spent the most time away from my mother (aside from me) is an ENFJ and also more "conservative" than my mother (though not really conservative in any real sense of the word.)

    In fact, I decided to come back and edit this and elaborate...my ENFJ sister was heavily, heavily influenced by her ESFJ paternal aunt...which is why I say she seems more "conservative" and very well may be the reason she's an Fe dom. My EnFP sister who spent the majority of her development with my mom leans more toward ESFP (like my mother) while I lean more toward INFP (probably due to Si influence). My ISFj sister (who also spent larger amounts of time actually being raised by my mother) definitely has Fe and Si, but she's a "soft J" making her seem almost xSFP at times...like my mother.

    And when I say I'm more conservative than my mother (don't laugh, seriously, I am), I don't just mean she's a batshit crazy unstable person (um, which she was for the majority of my childhood which is why she didn't raise me...my dad was her first husband, and my sisters' father was her second husband, which is why they spent more time with her)...I mean she's STILL now that she's older and more stable stupidly permissive with children, lacks discipline toward herself and others, and her political values are actually more "bleeding heart" liberal than mine, because she doesn't temper it with any real logic or value for personal responsibility at all. I attribute this to somewhat unhealthy and definitely out-of-control Se/Fi, because basically she's always done what seemed right to her in the moment without a great deal of foresight, and I'm not saying all ESFPs are like this so don't take it as that. But yeah.

    Nurture over nature FTW.
    Not knowing your father's type or the father(s?) of your sisters really makes it impossible to process your data objectively. But it is still interesting and food for thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmm-well it really is a whole lotta Ne honestly. It just seems like there may be patterns but it is complicated to tease apart.

    I would avoid MBTI and look at functions. The trends I noted are what I see in mine and my ex husbands family. I mapped it out by functions and could start to see the trends I mentioned-but the data is exceptionally sparse-just teases.
    Yeah, functions for sure, I agree.

    I'd expect the functions would be groups of SNPs that are inherited together, if I had to guess. But given there do seem to be certain ways of using these functions that are a bit more innate-at least for the dom and aux-it kind points to some sort of expression and repression that occur to form the pairs. I would be very interested in the role of enviornmental stress on the mother and epigentics in the eventual way the innate type is expressed. Under long term stress cortisol levels will be increased. This will alter other hormone levels likely due to modulation of gene expression or maybe methylation of dna, thus reducing transcription, but damn I am out of date on the molecular biology. So innate type but strong effect of the enviornment on the type expression perhaps?
    Pairs is an interesting concept to ponder. Jag had a link to someone who proposed that we use pairs of functions at various times in our lives like waves, changing pairs as we go through life.


    Finally, I will leave you for now with a quote from Jung pps 331-333:

    In the same family one child is introverted, the other extraverted. Since the facts show that the attitude-type is a general phenomenon having an apparently random distribution, it cannot be a matter of conscious judgment or conscious intention, but must be due to some unconscious, instinctive cause. As a general psychological phenomenon, therefore, the type antithesis must have some kind of biological foundation.

    The fact that children often exhibit a typical attitude quite unmistakably even in their earliest years forces us to assume that it cannot be the struggle for existence in the ordinary sense that determines a particular attitude. It might be objected, cogently enough, that even the infant at the breast has ato perform an unconscious act of psychological adaptation, in the at the mother's influence leads to specific reactions in the child. This argument, while supported by incontestable evidence, becomes rather flimsy in face of the equally incontestable fact that two children of the same mother may exhibit contrary attitudes a t an early age, though no change in the mother's attitude can be demonstrated. Although nothing would induce me to underrate the incalculable importance of parental influence, this familiar experience compels me to conclude that the decisive factor must be looked for in the disposition of the child. Ultimately it must be the individual disposition which decides whether the child will belong to this or that type despite the constancy of external conditions. Naturally I am thinking only of normal cases. Under abnormal conditions, i.e., when the mother's own attitude is extreme, a similar attitude can be forced on the children too, thus violating their individual disposition, which might have opted for another type if no abnormal external influences had intervened. As a rule, whenever such a falsification of type takes place as a result of parental influence, the individual becomes neurotic later, and can be cured only by developing the attitude consonant with his nature.

    As to individual disposition, I have nothing to say except that there are obviously individuals who have a greater capacity, or to whom it is more congenial, to adapt in one way and not another. It may well be that physiological causes of which we have no knowledge play a part in this. I do not think it improbable, in view of one's experience that a reversal of type often proves exceedingly harmful to the physiological well-being of the organism, usually causing acute exhaustion.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #37
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    Paternal grandfather: ISTP
    Paternal grandmother: ISFJ
    Dad: INFP
    Dad's sister: ESFJ

    Maternal grandfather: ISTP
    Maternal grandmother: ESFJ
    Mom: ESFJ
    Mom's older sister: ENFJ
    Mom's younger sister: ISTJ
    Mom's brother: ENTP

    Me: INTJ
    Older half-sister: INFP (different mother)
    Younger sister: ESFP
    Younger brother: ESTP

    All of these types are speculative on my part, so there may be some error. Even still, I don't believe there is a correlation.
    I'm beginning to think one of these threads should be floated.
    [insert funny quote/saying/etc.]

  8. #38
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Me - INFJ NiFeTiSe
    Mom - ISTJ SiTeFiNe
    Dad - ISFJ SiFeTiNe
    Brother - INTP TiNeSiFe

    Dad's Dad - INTJ NiTeFiSe
    Dad's Mom - ESFJ FeSiNeTi
    Dad's Sister - xNTx ?? (she's definitely not INTJ, but of the other three I really don't know)

    Mom's Dad - ISTJ SiTeFiNe
    Mom's Mom - ISxJ Si ? ? Ne
    Mom's Sister - ISxP ? SeNi ?

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock
    You have a belief that's based largely on personal experience, and while this may be a convincing argument for you, it's not enough for me. There have been a number of cases of adopted children being similar, in regards to personality, to their biological parents, but there also have been a number of cases where the children are more like their adoptive parents, in regards to personality.

    The nature vs. nurture debate is not obsolete. You seem to be overly willing to make it so, however.

    Phenotype = genotype + environment

    I'm not denying that genes have some influence on our personality. I'm just more inclined to believe that environment plays a larger role in the phenotype variable than does the genotype (and if not larger, then perhaps equal).
    Very valid points; I was thinking these same things

    Also, the other fact that while personality itself is influenced/created by genes to a degree, we still have to remember *we're* the ones who've 'made up' the mbti dichotomies and functions, and the categories we've created may not have any bearing on the 'categories'/personality characteristics the genes code for. If that makes any sense.
    Last edited by cascadeco; 04-24-2010 at 01:11 PM.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  9. #39
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post


    Not knowing your father's type or the father(s?) of your sisters really makes it impossible to process your data objectively. But it is still interesting and food for thought.
    The father of my three sisters is most likely xSTP. I'd lean toward ESTP.

    I think your numbers for nature vs. nurture are too high. While some biological, genetic factors are obviously going to have an impact, I don't think you're giving nearly enough credit to environment, upbringing, learning, culture, etc.

  10. #40
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,688

    Default

    Mom: eNFJ
    Dad: INTP

    ^These I'm confident of (that if they were to take the official test, they'd get these results). My sister & uncle I'm less certain of.

    Sister: ISxx (first guess ISTP, second guess ISxJ)
    Dad's brother: ENTJ

    My son: INFJ (I'm pretty sure. But then, he's only 16.)

    ^His dad: ENTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Also, the other fact that while personality itself is influenced/created by genes to a degree, we still have to remember *we're* the ones who've 'made up' the mbti dichotomies and functions, and the categories we've created may not have any bearing on the 'categories'/personality characteristics the genes code for. If that makes any sense.
    ^This is always where I end up. I always feel the need to point out that- no matter how much we think we know- it should still be taken with a grain of salt. People form constructs to categorize events and phenomena for the sake of sharing and improving our understanding of them, but then we can inadvertently shift toward studying the construct as though it were the same as studying the actual event or phenomena (instead of something we created to represent the event or phenomena, basically mistaking the map for the territory).

    ...if THAT makes any sense.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. Type projection
    By Poki in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-30-2016, 04:16 PM
  2. Project Help! Type & Picture
    By justwannabeMe in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-31-2013, 02:47 AM
  3. Personality Type Research Project - please contribute
    By DevelopingPotential in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-02-2010, 07:46 PM
  4. Type Description Project
    By disregard in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-27-2008, 09:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO