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  1. #61
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    But what if the "lie" didnt affect any lessons learned or had any effect on Fi. You could then pull an estimate out that may not be correct, but is just as good as the concrete data. Something that if someone changed that one thing you would simply respond, thats beside the point.
    poki you are going to make me late for lunch-but-

    How I use Si:
    I use lots of Te. A clear Te problem is buying a house and identifying the best interest rate for the mortgage. Based on mine and others past knowledge stored in my Si library, I can then Ne identify all possible choices for the mortage, using Ne creativity, and then back compare against Si history.

    Some Ne possibilities will be really safe-My Si database gives them a big thumbs up. A 7% fixed rate loan.

    Some will be totally crazy-say Ne says the lowest mortgage is to build myself a straw/clay house outside of taos new mexico-thus a zero mortgage as it's in the middle of a desert. Yeah Si gives that one a shit poor score. (But Ne is quite intrigued!)

    So if I allowed Si to lie to Te, well shit, I just screwed myself. I may pick the clay house, but fully recognize the high potential for problems.

    Rereading your question :
    I dont care about the se details so would never argue them with you. Sure, you are right. I recognize my own unawareness, thus wouldnt even try and argue. The Si lessons become generic rules-not Se specific lessons/memories???

    This may not make any sense at all.....

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    poki you are going to make me late for lunch-but-

    How I use Si:
    I use lots of Te. A clear Te problem is buying a house and identifying the best interest rate for the mortgage. Based on mine and others past knowledge stored in my Si library, I can then Ne identify all possible choices for the mortage, using Ne creativity, and then back compare against Si history.

    Some Ne possibilities will be really safe-My Si database gives them a big thumbs up. A 7% fixed rate loan.

    Some will be totally crazy-say Ne says the lowest mortgage is to build myself a straw/clay house outside of taos new mexico-thus a zero mortgage as it's in the middle of a desert. Yeah Si gives that one a shit poor score. (But Ne is quite intrigued!)

    So if I allowed Si to lie to Te, well shit, I just screwed myself. I may pick the clay house, but fully recognize the high potential for problems.

    Rereading your question :
    I dont care about the se details so would never argue them with you. Sure, you are right. I recognize my own unawareness, thus wouldnt even try and argue. The Si lessons become generic rules-not Se specific lessons/memories???

    This may not make any sense at all.....
    I am on lunch now...

    I am not ever sure if what I am claiming as incorrect Si is actually right or not right. Its like a hunch with me whether its right or not but I dont ever really care. The detail is not Se detail at all. I am not talking about lessons or rules, I am talking Fi judgement. I am guessing in the same manner that U has to preprocess Fi you have to preprocess Te.

    But you dont have to preprocess Fi so the Si that is based on Fi does not have to be as concrete. You know the feeling, you know why, and whether something maybe red or green or possibly 2, 3, 4, or 5 times or any other concrete detail your Fi still remains. I am talking about times when ENFPs let Fi out in rants and show your Fi judgement. Si can be semi fuzzy where as I believe Si in ISTJs in regard to Fi are gonna be much more "hardset" as they probably have to preprocess Fi. Just as INTJs go by "would feel" based on pre-set intuition. I am guessing that ISTJs go by "would feel" based on preset concrete detail.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #63
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Si can be semi fuzzy where as I believe Si in ISTJs in regard to Fi are gonna be much more "hardset" as they probably have to preprocess Fi. Just as INTJs go by "would feel" based on pre-set intuition. I am guessing that ISTJs go by "would feel" based on preset concrete detail.

    This.

    This is a reason why ISTJs can get a bad rap as no fun. Let's take food for example. A few ladies have complained on the SJ side of the board that their ISTJ beau hates to try new restaurants. Why? Most likely he had a not so good experience with trying new food. It may have not been bad, but it was wierd. Thus, he shuts out any possibility of trying the new Indian Fusion resturant that just opened. Indian Food= new food (Si), new food= not a good experience (it won't feel good) (Fi). I have this experience with guacamole. It's green- the 'spoiled' food green. It's cold- I tend to not like chilled foods. It's soft- again, mushy stuff gives me a spoiled impression. So it will not be a good food experience. Now mind you, I've had guac in the past- as a spread on the side, as well as it being sliced and included in a recipe, and it's not bad, but since those Si intakes are so powerful, and I hate the feeling of eating something spoiled or cold, I tend to not eat it.

  4. #64
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    thanks IZthe411! that actually gives me a bit more insight on Si and my ISTJ (and introducing him to new foods)

    I remember asking once "have you ever had vindaloo curry?"

    I got a story in reply about a truly evil experience with Indian food in someone else's house... a story with very unpleasant results This was followed by an announcement that he wasn't sure he was up to trying Indian food again because of this

    I waited for a couple of weeks and made vindaloo curry and refused to tell him what it was... apparently it was sufficiently different from the previous food and he liked it! Now if we go anywhere that serves Indian food he orders vindaloo curry

    You definitley hit on the example of Si cautiously remembering former mishaps that I'd forgotten about

    (my Se likes to run wild and eat anything that tastes delicious or looks novel... fortunatly he trusts my judgement enough by now, after a lot of making me try new things first, that he DOES eat new things!)

    glad to have some SJ input on Si I have Se covered, but not Si
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #65
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I am not ever sure if what I am claiming as incorrect Si is actually right or not right. Its like a hunch with me whether its right or not but I dont ever really care. The detail is not Se detail at all. I am not talking about lessons or rules, I am talking Fi judgement. I am guessing in the same manner that U has to preprocess Fi you have to preprocess Te.

    But you dont have to preprocess Fi so the Si that is based on Fi does not have to be as concrete. You know the feeling, you know why, and whether something maybe red or green or possibly 2, 3, 4, or 5 times or any other concrete detail your Fi still remains. I am talking about times when ENFPs let Fi out in rants and show your Fi judgement. Si can be semi fuzzy where as I believe Si in ISTJs in regard to Fi are gonna be much more "hardset" as they probably have to preprocess Fi. Just as INTJs go by "would feel" based on pre-set intuition. I am guessing that ISTJs go by "would feel" based on preset concrete detail.
    You are very insightful. So first-I would really rather defer to the INFPs especially wrt to FiSi or even the other enfps. My Fi is too primitive to be an example, to be honest I just skip it and use Te. ie Ignore the feeling or recognize it is there but just ignore it and go with logic.

    The enfp rants-that isnt Fi judgment. I think that is an emotional overload. You filled up the Fi bucket with emo so fast that Fi didnt actually process much-you overwhelm Fi. You have two choices. The emotional overload triggers two things-either sad emo vomit back out Xe (an attempt to externalize the emotion for feedback like we'd externalize an Fi judgment???)- or angry emo vomit back out Te (a defensive reaction to shut down the source of emo overload). ESFPs do this too. These emo vomits decline with age-as Fi gets more refined with a bigger bucket and/or Te gets better at emotional detachment???? Just guesses.

    But for me-I guess I can use FiSi to kinda say "Hmmm, I recognize this feeling, I felt it here, this is what it meant, this is how I responded, and the response was okay/not okay/good/bad, this is how I should respond now.". Yeah but I am an Fi fail, so I dunno. I dont really use Fi to judge other people much.

  6. #66
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Here's my very N contribution:



    Se doesn't get much of the graph, but it is focussed on the most important point: the origin, or the present reality. Ni seems the one most far from present reality and the most scattered. Si gets past reality, or experience; and Ne scatters somewhere around the origin, never really getting there. As you see, there are regions with mixed colours, and that's exactly my intention.
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  7. #67
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Here's my very N contribution:



    Se doesn't get much of the graph, but it is focussed on the most important point: the origin, or the present reality. Ni seems the one most far from present reality and the most scattered. Si gets past reality, or experience; and Ne scatters somewhere around the origin, never really getting there. As you see, there are regions with mixed colours, and that's exactly my intention.
    This is really a good try and mostly a correct one.

    However you make Ni more past oriented than future orented which is incorrect as far as I know. Swich the number of dots for "past and present" for Ni and this will be correct graph. (towards my subjective opinion)

  8. #68
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    This is really a good try and mostly a correct one.

    However you make Ni more past oriented than future orented which is incorrect as far as I know. Swich the number of dots for "past and present" for Ni and this will be correct graph. (towards my subjective opinion)
    Hm, I also wanted the "future" points further apart, with only a few ones hitting near reality. The future is always less known or certain than the past.
    Does Ni base it's guesses on Si, actually? I wanted to depict Ni originating in the "past reality" realm and run towards all sorts of different futures.
    Also, do you like the big Ne/Ni mix? Because I seem to be constantly switching between these two...
    Maybe I should add also a bit more Ne/Si mix, too.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    This is really a good try and mostly a correct one.

    However you make Ni more past oriented than future orented which is incorrect as far as I know. Swich the number of dots for "past and present" for Ni and this will be correct graph. (towards my subjective opinion)
    i find Ni to be far more past-oriented. we are more gestalt--we interpolate based on a huge inventory of patterns learned, arranged, and stored for long-term use (introverted functions!).

    Ne types follow a rationale-process to build their own pathways of reasoning experience. they extrapolate. they work on building multiple threads at a time. we play with language tools based on previous experience with symbolic concepts (sets of relationships-->metaphors) and situational grammar in order to connect the dots already there. if we do not have a symbol-set ready it takes us longer to figure out what we're doing.

    with my entp friend, in games that we both know how to play well, i'll beat him the majority of the time. in new games that we are just learning, he'll always beat me.

  10. #70
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There's a study somewhere, done on seventh-graders I believe, where the subjects wrote essays about themselves. The type that projected themselves furthest into the future turned out to be INTJ. Second furthest projection into the future was done by ENTPs.

    And I read somewhere too something along the lines of F tending to be more past-oriented than T.

    Would that make a difference?
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