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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'll give you a Se-Ni example from a Se dom... you don't usually get as many of those examples here

    Ni for me mostly involves hideous paranoid hunches at the back of my mind which I find quite unsettling... when these strike I then find it necissary to examine situations that could lead to this and analyze them (investigating thoroughly with Se and analyzing input data with Ti)... this proves the Ni insight to either be a rational fear or paranoid babble from a part of my brain that probably needs a nice slap
    With me the situations that lead to them become extremely and painfully obvious very quickly so I dont have to examine areas that cause this as I already have enough to know the cause. I then have to proceed down those paths to get past what it is that drives this. Once I work through this its nice to have Se see that the world didnt actually crash from what my tertiary Ni jumped into for a second and worknig through it gives me better direction. I dont act on hunches at all until enough becomes apparent that Ni kicks in instantly.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #52
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    State's description of Ni is apt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The few times I have sensed Ni-in its tiny puny form for me-the scaling through abstraction sounds quite right. It was strangely focused on the particular object and just kept adding layers and elaboration to it.
    This sounds right.
    Very weird as my typical Ne is content to just link strings of new things together, but then wants to step back and extend linkage A to the entire alphabet.
    As does this. I think there is an Ne desire for "completeness", whether that completeness is achieved via Fi, Ti, or Si.

    For instance for a funny example-it isnt just enough to Ne link one individual (Provoker the INTJ) to a chicken-I then have to link all MBTI types to various chickens and then in my mind link that to all sorts of other funny stuff as well. Layers and layers of silly defective Ne linkages in this case.
    Not defective. It's applying the "chicken" pattern to the MBTI pattern. That's how Ne works. Much of the time, the resulting patterns are merely amusing nonsense, but there are times when the resulting patterns aren't merely amusing, but incredibly true. Feynman, an ENTP, said he discovered one key quantum mechanical principle by watching a plate spin. He took the plate spinning pattern and ran it against his quantum mechanics pattern and generated something that wasn't nonsense.

    Weird-so I constantly look outwards to find new items to connect to the old items I already know. But instead you zoom in on the link (or lack thereof ) between two mental objects??? And as you look deeper, the layers spontaneously emerge-like a fractal?? Neeeeaaaatttt. Do you ever feel the urge to take that new idea and externalize/generalize/broaden the application of the idea as much as possible? (Ne...)
    I know I do. Ni focuses down and figures out some sort of neat idea, and then as I look for logical consistency within that idea (Ti), I find myself exploring what that "new idea pattern" implies when I run it against other logical patterns I know.


    Ne strikes out a lot and I have to look back at the Si patterns (data?), to have any confidence in the Ne connections.

    Do you look to Se to comfirm the Ni interpolations? Is that part of the conversation with others you mention?
    Yes, I use Se w/r to gaining direct evidence of Ni guesses. I also use Te to do so in a more abstract way.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #53
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'll give you a Se-Ni example from a Se dom... you don't usually get as many of those examples here

    Ni for me mostly involves hideous paranoid hunches at the back of my mind which I find quite unsettling... when these strike I then find it necissary to examine situations that could lead to this and analyze them (investigating thoroughly with Se and analyzing input data with Ti)... this proves the Ni insight to either be a rational fear or paranoid babble from a part of my brain that probably needs a nice slap
    I have seen an older ESTP to this odd thing. I asked him a question-a fairly complex emo one. He gave me an answer immediately that was sort of dismissive and immediate. A week later he gave me another answer-totally different and matching to my predictions (it was an Fe/Fi probe question ). I wondered if this was an example of him using Ni to view the question from a "different Ni perspective" after thinking about it. I dunno....

    Another thing I see my ESFP sister and a few other very unhealthy ESFPs do-They rewrite history. My mom and I thought my sister was a pathological liar as she would tell us about a series of events from the past-but totally rewritten and factually incorrect in her favor. Yet she would swear by her story. I have seen a few other ESFPs do the same thing-thus I wonder if they use Ni to reperceive the historical story to protect their Fi judgments.

    As an enfp I hide my Fi judgments so I assume an ESFP is as sensitive about Fi, but doesnt have Ne to find new ways to perceive what is in front of them-thus must find new ways to perceive what has already occurred via inferior Ni to protect post event?

    I dunno, all ramblings though....

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have seen an older ESTP to this odd thing. I asked him a question-a fairly complex emo one. He gave me an answer immediately that was sort of dismissive and immediate. A week later he gave me another answer-totally different and matching to my predictions (it was an Fe/Fi probe question ). I wondered if this was an example of him using Ni to view the question from a "different Ni perspective" after thinking about it. I dunno....
    I can be prone to doing this alot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Another thing I see my ESFP sister and a few other very unhealthy ESFPs do-They rewrite history. My mom and I thought my sister was a pathological liar as she would tell us about a series of events from the past-but totally rewritten and factually incorrect in her favor. Yet she would swear by her story. I have seen a few other ESFPs do the same thing-thus I wonder if they use Ni to reperceive the historical story to protect their Fi judgments.
    Its possible that all they really remember was Fi judgement. I have come across ENFPs that do this as well, I generally dismiss it as its not really important. Instead of a series of events its just a single detail.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #55
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The few times I have sensed Ni-in its tiny puny form for me-the scaling through abstraction sounds quite right. It was strangely focused on the particular object and just kept adding layers and elaboration to it.

    Very weird as my typical Ne is content to just link strings of new things together, but then wants to step back and extend linkage A to the entire alphabet.

    For instance for a funny example-it isnt just enough to Ne link one individual (Provoker the INTJ) to a chicken-I then have to link all MBTI types to various chickens and then in my mind link that to all sorts of other funny stuff as well. Layers and layers of silly defective Ne linkages in this case.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1133881

    Weird-so I constantly look outwards to find new items to connect to the old items I already know. But instead you zoom in on the link (or lack thereof ) between two mental objects??? And as you look deeper, the layers spontaneously emerge-like a fractal?? Neeeeaaaatttt. Do you ever feel the urge to take that new idea and externalize/generalize/broaden the application of the idea as much as possible? (Ne...) ie apply it to a very broad range of contexts.

    Yeah I kinda do this with Ne as well. Cross checking and requests for feedback as well as tracing of symmetry. So as can be seen above I invested a substantially amount of time Ne linking chickens and MBTI, as it was utterly hysterical. I giggled for hours. But part of the funny Ne brain is understanding that 90% of the time, the "connections" are not really connected. Ne strikes out a lot and I have to look back at the Si patterns (data?), to have any confidence in the Ne connections.

    Do you look to Se to comfirm the Ni interpolations? Is that part of the conversation with others you mention?
    1 fractal maybe, the most obvious example of Ni vs Ne is microcosmic vs macrocosmic. i learned that distinction in a class on emily dickinson (Ni) and walt whitman (Ne).

    2. Ne is more outside of itself, it merges with whatever it is intuiting. it sees possibilities emanating outside of its intended focus/synthesis. it's more exploratory, it feels random much of the time because it quickly opens up as many connections it can generate, pure possibilities. Ni tries to do the same but it's more on the level of integrating with as many maps already stored, exploring all of the potential patterns embodied in whatever it is we are trying to synthesize, and connecting everywhere that seems to fit. and then remembering the generalization we learn (the induction vs deduction thing).

    3. as such, i need the context to trigger my imagination. i need more information before i have any sense of how to imagine it, i can't tell what it connects to if it doesn't have Je context, external constraint, purpose in order to refine the possibilities and provide a structuring element and a narrowing of focus. i am uninterested in reading something without it addressing a problem i've already identified or having a few hypotheses about the text i want to investigate or without knowing the person and feeling i'm learning useful information about this person's ____ while reading. otherwise i just don't give a fuck, because it's too big, and i don't enjoy having to generate all the structure myself, because it feels too exhaustingly experimental, when i could be learning something really specific, mapping out something in much greater detail with more information density, that would create an overall/generalized much better map of meaning that i could use for many things potentially.

    4. for instance, i'm a writing/language/lit student, and to me the writing process stands in for all composition processes. i'm thinking about what i learn in that way. i'm learning how to build and construct meaning, consider its communicative effect, organize, revise, create my voice, allow a design to emerge through the conscious choices that i make, build complexity, etc. how to get my inner modeled world out into the extroverted/shared world skillfully and without feeling disappointed in the final product.

    5. confirming Ni interpretations via Se? yeah, i think so. when i'm at my best, i get the best Fe information possible. which requires a bit more freedom to Se, to be in the moment, to open up myself and hear the situation and the actors and the needs presented and the overall drama with all of my attention and awareness. Fe is my ultimate authority in this way, and i absolutely have to rely on the extroverted (read: shared) world to give me appropriate feedback and let me know how i'm doing, what i'm missing, what others value, etc. much of the information i take in is with heavy inflection (although generally i feel mostly aware of where things have come from and in what mood/tone i have absorbed them) from the speaker, their attitudes and relationship to whatever it is i learn from them, getting a sense of their values and how those connect to the information i learn. just how many of my friends are Ti types and i just love exploring their minds and absorbing as much Ti knowledge as i can--i can't do it nearly as easily and nearly as finishedly, so it's like pure gold to me. the knowledge becomes part of my intelligence in a different way, while quickly stimulating Ti to try to keep up and check what they're saying. it's good practice too.

  6. #56
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have seen an older ESTP to this odd thing. I asked him a question-a fairly complex emo one. He gave me an answer immediately that was sort of dismissive and immediate. A week later he gave me another answer-totally different and matching to my predictions (it was an Fe/Fi probe question ). I wondered if this was an example of him using Ni to view the question from a "different Ni perspective" after thinking about it. I dunno....

    Another thing I see my ESFP sister and a few other very unhealthy ESFPs do-They rewrite history. My mom and I thought my sister was a pathological liar as she would tell us about a series of events from the past-but totally rewritten and factually incorrect in her favor. Yet she would swear by her story. I have seen a few other ESFPs do the same thing-thus I wonder if they use Ni to reperceive the historical story to protect their Fi judgments.

    As an enfp I hide my Fi judgments so I assume an ESFP is as sensitive about Fi, but doesnt have Ne to find new ways to perceive what is in front of them-thus must find new ways to perceive what has already occurred via inferior Ni to protect post event?

    I dunno, all ramblings though....
    I'm not sure on ESFPs that way (I'm not one!) but I DO identify with the double answering of questions... I'll give a top of the head answer that suits me at that moment and then I'll eventually think it through (usually when some little voice in the back of my head says "you didn't answer that right!!!") and conclude a different answer to give... those who know me have gotten used to this, those who don't occasionally find it confusing

    And interesting to hear your description from a tertiary instead of inferior Ni poki! I'd wondered how the difference in placement there could really have an effect... it apparently does
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #57
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I can be prone to doing this alot.
    Its possible that all they really remember was Fi judgement. I have come across ENFPs that do this as well, I generally dismiss it as its not really important. Instead of a series of events its just a single detail.
    That is a good point Poki-The Fi judgment. Yeah I dont remember the Se details at all-but typically that isnt the point of the convo-it will be the judgment and resulting action. Dude, I cant figure out how this works for Fi used with Si.

    For TeSi-lessons learned are etched in concrete. I cant "lie" to myself as it is flawed and will corrupt the Ne possibility loop. It will fuck up the new potentials too much and since I LOVE potentials, I wont sacrifice them in self delusion. I can choose to ignore the Si data library and recognize the inherent risk-but it is my own internal skeptic and I KNOW I ignored it. So FiSi?? Now that is some really weird shit. I'd like the INFP perspective as I think their version is much more evolved than mine..

  8. #58
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Its possible that all they really remember was Fi judgement. I have come across ENFPs that do this as well, I generally dismiss it as its not really important. Instead of a series of events its just a single detail.
    Whoa! Now that's an interesting thought. Not just having a perceiving function as a "memory", but also a judging function can be a "memory."

    Try this on for size:

    Si == concrete memory
    Ni == pattern/impression memory
    Fi == feeling memory
    Ti == thinking memory

    I'm still working on what this would imply for Se, Ne, Fe and Te. Perhaps:

    Se == concrete interaction
    Ne == pattern/impression interaction
    Fe == feeling interaction
    Te == thinking interaction

    Thoughts?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    That is a good point Poki-The Fi judgment. Yeah I dont remember the Se details at all-but typically that isnt the point of the convo-it will be the judgment and resulting action. Dude, I cant figure out how this works for Fi used with Si.

    For TeSi-lessons learned are etched in concrete. I cant "lie" to myself as it is flawed and will corrupt the Ne possibility loop. It will fuck up the new potentials too much and since I LOVE potentials, I wont sacrifice them in self delusion. I can choose to ignore the Si data library and recognize the inherent risk-but it is my own internal skeptic and I KNOW I ignored it. So FiSi?? Now that is some really weird shit. I'd like the INFP perspective as I think their version is much more evolved than mine..
    But what if the "lie" didnt affect any lessons learned or had any effect on Fi. You could then pull an estimate out that may not be correct, but is just as good as the concrete data. Something that if someone changed that one thing you would simply respond, thats beside the point.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #60
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Whoa! Now that's an interesting thought. Not just having a perceiving function as a "memory", but also a judging function can be a "memory."

    Try this on for size:

    Si == concrete memory
    Ni == pattern/impression memory
    Fi == feeling memory
    Ti == thinking memory

    I'm still working on what this would imply for Se, Ne, Fe and Te. Perhaps:

    Se == concrete interaction
    Ne == pattern/impression interaction
    Fe == feeling interaction
    Te == thinking interaction

    Thoughts?
    I think the roots/branches/theroems/axioms from the Fi thread may be partially grounded in FiSi. So for an INFP the Fi rules would be exceptionally strong and well defined given that Si is more developed. For an ENFP I would predict much more malleability and less development. In both cases those rule sets can be modified changed and pruned-but it takes a lot of effort and -um pain and feeling.

    I would suggest very gently, since I do not occupy your brain-perhaps for an INTJ-you may use NiFi in the same sort of way, but the trees and branches are much easier to drop in and out of a pattern as they are Ni perceptions-not Si etched roots?

    Now once the roots are built, what does Si do with them? It isnt concrete. It isnt entirely static, as pointed out by others in this thread previously. The roots can be changed. The roots/stored Si "stuff" can be used.

    But how is the question.

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