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Let's talk about Keirsey

wolfy

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Keirsey Temperament Sorter

* The inner ring: abstract versus concrete

According to Keirsey, everyone can engage in both observation and introspection. When people touch objects, watch a basketball game, taste food, or otherwise perceive the world through their five senses, they are observant. When people reflect and focus on their internal world, they are introspective. However, individuals cannot engage in observation and introspection at the same time. The extent to which people are more observant or introspective directly affects their behavior.

People who are generally observant are more 'down to earth.' They are more concrete in their worldview and tend to focus on practical matters such as food, shelter, and their immediate relationships. Carl Jung used the word sensing when describing concrete people. People who are generally introspective are more 'head in the clouds.' They are more abstract in their world view and tend to focus on global or theoretical issues such as equality or engineering. Carl Jung used the word intuition when describing abstract people.

* The second ring: cooperative versus pragmatic (utilitarian)

Keirsey uses the words cooperative (complying) and pragmatic (adaptive) when comparing the differing temperaments. People who are cooperative pay more attention to other people's opinions and are more concerned with doing the right thing. People who are pragmatic (utilitarian) pay more attention to their own thoughts or feelings and are more concerned with doing what works. There is no comparable idea of Myers or Jung that corresponds to this dichotomy, so this is a significant difference between Keirsey's work and that of Myers and Jung.

This ring, in combination with the inner ring, determines a person's temperament. The pragmatic temperaments are Rationals (pragmatic and abstract) and Artisans (pragmatic and concrete). The cooperative temperaments are Idealists (cooperative and abstract), and Guardians (cooperative and concrete). Neither Myers nor Jung included the concept of temperament in their work.

* The third ring: directive (proactive) versus informative (reactive)

The third ring distinguishes between people who generally communicate by informing others versus people who generally communicate by directing others. Each of the four temperaments is subdivided by this distinction for a result of eight roles.

The directive roles are Operators (directive Artisans), Administrators (directive Guardians), Mentors (directive Idealists), and Coordinators (directive Rationals). The informative roles are Entertainers (informative Artisans), Conservators (informative Guardians), Advocates (informative Idealists), and Engineers (informative Rationals).

* The fourth ring: expressive versus attentive

The fourth ring describes how people interact with their environment. Individuals who tend to act before observing are described as expressive, whereas people who tend to observe before acting are described as attentive.

Each of the eight categories can be subdivided by this distinction, for a total of 16 role variants. These 16 role variants correlate to the 16 Myers-Briggs types.

The expressive role variants are Promoters (expressive Operators), Performers (expressive Entertainers), Supervisors (expressive Administrators), Providers (expressive Conservators), Teachers (expressive Mentors), Champions (expressive Advocates), Fieldmarshals (expressive Coordinators), and Inventors (expressive Engineers).

The attentive role variants are Crafters (attentive Operators), Composers (attentive Entertainers), Inspectors (attentive Administrators), Protectors (attentive Conservators), Counselors (attentive Mentors), Healers (attentive Advocates), Masterminds (attentive Coordinators), and Architects (attentive Engineers).

So I have a few questions.

Did Keirsey use mbti cognitive based descriptions for his type descriptions?
The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
in the descriptions.


Does your type change depending on your environment? It makes more sense to me if it did. You could change from isfp to esfp relative to your environment. And if you were more, for example expressive, then you would tend to take on the role of that type in that particular environment.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Did Keirsey use mbti cognitive based descriptions for his type descriptions?

No. He loosely co-opted the MB structure, but his system does not utilize cognitive processes at all. It is a non-cognitive theory. It is more behavioral and affective, temperamental really. Hence the name.

The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
in the descriptions.

I can't answer this one for you.

Does your type change depending on your environment? It makes more sense to me if it did. You could change from isfp to esfp relative to your environment. And if you were more, for example expressive, then you would tend to take on the role of that type in that particular environment.

Since Keirsey's types are defined by external behavior, the answer to this has to be yes, even he himself would deny it. Over the course of ones life time, behavior is only very vaguely consistent, with that itself sub-divided into noticable stages of greater change.
 

Quinlan

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I think I am inbetween on abstract and concrete, balanced on the second but probably leaning towards cooperative, and I'm directive and attentive.

Therefore I lie somewhere between INFJ and ISTJ.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Keirsey Temperament Sorter



So I have a few questions.

Did Keirsey use mbti cognitive based descriptions for his type descriptions?
The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
in the descriptions.


Does your type change depending on your environment? It makes more sense to me if it did. You could change from isfp to esfp relative to your environment. And if you were more, for example expressive, then you would tend to take on the role of that type in that particular environment.

Lets not talk about Keirsey because his work on personality theory has been thoroughly discredited by serious researchers.
 

Jeffster

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Lets not talk about Keirsey because his work on personality theory has been thoroughly discredited by serious researchers.

Strange how you can't resist coming into a topic about him, though. Feel free to not click on it.

I noticed you never answered my question as to what "non-folk typology' accomplishes.
 

Halla74

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I noticed you never answered my question as to what "non-folk typology' accomplishes.

Oooooh, this should be good. :yes:
Inquiring minds want to know... :popc1:
 

SolitaryWalker

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I noticed you never answered my question as to what "non-folk typology' accomplishes.

Accurate understanding of type and its relevance to personality theory which allows for more benign clinical implementation of typology.
 

Eric B

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The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
in the descriptions.
For S's, F is informing and T is directive. (While for N's, it's determined by J/P). So F will orient the ISFP to artisticness, while T will orient the ISTP to mechanics.
 

wolfy

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Lets not talk about Keirsey because his work on personality theory has been thoroughly discredited by serious researchers.

I couldn't care less what you think about Keirsey, I have some questions. If you can't answer them or don't want to stay out of the thread. If you want to start a thread on the validity of Keirey go ahead.
 

wolfy

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For S's, F is informing and T is directive. (While for N's, it's determined by J/P). So F will orient the ISFP to artisticness, while T will orient the ISTP to mechanics.

So informing is a form of expression? It seems that the only real world difference at that level would be one person who expressed themselves informing and another person who expressed themselves by directing things.

What they actually directed their attention towards would be the same I would think.
 

Jeffster

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The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
in the descriptions.

Does your type change depending on your environment? It makes more sense to me if it did. You could change from isfp to esfp relative to your environment. And if you were more, for example expressive, then you would tend to take on the role of that type in that particular environment.

Keirsey's latest book, "Brains and Careers" actually delves into this in some detail in more than one area of the book. Here's an example:

Thus our instincts predispose us to try and to achieve some results more than others, which is to say that we are born with a certain temperament that inclines us to want some results more than others. As our temperament interacts with our social field, we develop our character, which is to say, we become disposed to act in certain ways rather than others. Once preset in our ways, we gradually become set in our ways. Thus we acquire a pattern of habits -- our personality. Thus character (disposition) and temperament (predisposition) are the two sides of habit formation -- personality. The four temperaments -- each with a different brain configuration -- diplomatic, strategic, tactical, logistical -- are more productive and therefore more prized by their companions when they get a job the results of which suit them best.

-- Brains and Careers, page 23

He goes on to talk about how all of us can fit any of the sixteen "intelligent roles" that correlate with the sixteen MB types, but how we are naturally predisposed to certain roles, and the others will require much more effort and practice than the ones we are naturally predisposed to.

I talked about this in the audio blog thingy I did several months ago (not sure if you listened to that, wolfy) where I agreed with Keirsey that my primary role is Composer, but my secondary role would be Performer, which he says normally comes more naturally to Composers than Promoter, Crafter, and much more so than Counselor, Inspector, and so on.

If you analyze my most repeated endeavors throughout my life, composing - in other words, artistic creation of some sort - has been my primary interest, but I have done plenty of performing, and enjoy it. It just requires more effort and practice than composing, but less so than promoting, counseling, supervising, mobilizing, etc.

Dr. K also uses the terms "interlinking" and "intersecting" which I confess I don't entirely understand, but it's one of the differences he points out in that whole "informing vs directing" thing.

So, you see a distinction in "mechanical ability" vs "artistic level" but he says they are in a sense two sides of the same coin, with mechanics in the hands of a Crafter (ISTP) being an artistic endeavor, just a slightly different one than the consonant composition of a Composer.

Accurate understanding of type and its relevance to personality theory which allows for more benign clinical implementation of typology.

What sort of implementation?
 

OrangeAppled

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I have a question for SPs.....I notice a bit of a trend in SPs here preferring Keirsey to other Jungian typology authors. He seems to be quoted the most in the SP forum.

Is there any reason for this or is it just coincidence? Does he use more "concrete" language or something like that?

Accurate understanding of type and its relevance to personality theory which allows for more benign clinical implementation of typology.


:yim_rolling_on_the_

I love your orneriness...it never ceases to amuse me. :wubbie:
 

wolfy

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So, you see a distinction in "mechanical ability" vs "artistic level" but he says they are in a sense two sides of the same coin, with mechanics in the hands of a Crafter (ISTP) being an artistic endeavor, just a slightly different one than the consonant composition of a Composer.

So it is more that the isfp is about using the things in the environment to create an effect, than expression of self. And an istp is more about manipulating things in the environment to an objective. That makes sense of how they came to those descriptions in Beren's work to me.
 

Jeffster

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I have a question for SPs.....I notice a bit of a trend in SPs here preferring Keirsey to other Jungian typology authors. He seems to be quoted the most in the SP forum.

Is there any reason for this or is it just coincidence? Does he use more "concrete" language or something like that?

Yeah, I think it's not surprising that the most "action-oriented" temperament would tend to gravitate to someone who says that our actions are the most important factor.

So it is more that the isfp is about using the things in the environment to create an effect, than expression of self. And an istp is more about manipulating things in the environment to an objective. That makes sense of how they came to those descriptions in Beren's work to me.

I think that's an excellent way to put it. And I think it's why my ISTP little brother is better at losing weight than I am. ;)
 

wolfy

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I think that's an excellent way to put it. And I think it's why my ISTP little brother is better at losing weight than I am. ;)

That is funny. That is probably why I find it easier to drive myself if I keep my mouth shut. Forces me through to the impact.
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah, I think it's not surprising that the most "action-oriented" temperament would tend to gravitate to someone who says that our actions are the most important factor.

So defining types based on observable behavior makes it more relevant to you or reality? The heavy theoretical stuff feels too remote from the tangible?

I suppose that's why I don't like him. Reality has always felt "limiting".
Although, I can appreciate his temperament classification, but I prefer a looser interpretation of that concept.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I couldn't care less what you think about Keirsey, I have some questions. If you can't answer them or don't want to stay out of the thread. If you want to start a thread on the validity of Keirey go ahead.

Yes, I know, there is nothing profoundly reproachable about discussing New Age mysticism, Christian fundamentalism and Keirseyan folk typology. The trouble is, typically nothing good comes out of such conversations as ideas become all the more muddled and inevitably debase into gossip and conceptual vacuous self-congratulations or vendettas against other groups of people. It is due to Keirseyan typological methodology that many members of our forum believe that they are outstanding theorists because they scored INTx on their personality test and all ESFx people are insipid. I would be insincere to refrain from advising you to cease wasting your time on such rubbish. If you're interested in the study of temperament or personality theory read Jung's works or browse professional publications in contemporary psychology.

The trouble with Keirsey's method is that he makes assertions about large groups of people without citing empirical research in sociology to substantiate the relevant claims. The views of the champion of folk typology stand in sharp contrast with that of Jung who focused primarily on the description of mental processes rather than behaviors. Indeed, only by describing cognitive tendencies can one justify a typological inference without conducting carefully controlled empirical investigations. Since Keirsey rejected Jungian methodology, the burden of sociological proof is on him. It is an interesting fact that Dr.Keirsey's personal facebook profile indicates that he has no formal training in the social sciences, philosophy, history, political science or any other academic discipline that is concerned with the study of human nature. As you may see below, all of his academic credentials are in Computer science.

David Keirsey | Facebook


love your orneriness...it never ceases to amuse me. :wubbie:

Thank you, I surely enjoy observing the MBTI folks reacting to my posts in a manner reminiscent to how Oil-drilling companies responded to the researchers' forewarnings regarding global warming.
 
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