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  1. #11
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
    in the descriptions.
    For S's, F is informing and T is directive. (While for N's, it's determined by J/P). So F will orient the ISFP to artisticness, while T will orient the ISTP to mechanics.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Lets not talk about Keirsey because his work on personality theory has been thoroughly discredited by serious researchers.
    I couldn't care less what you think about Keirsey, I have some questions. If you can't answer them or don't want to stay out of the thread. If you want to start a thread on the validity of Keirey go ahead.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    For S's, F is informing and T is directive. (While for N's, it's determined by J/P). So F will orient the ISFP to artisticness, while T will orient the ISTP to mechanics.
    So informing is a form of expression? It seems that the only real world difference at that level would be one person who expressed themselves informing and another person who expressed themselves by directing things.

    What they actually directed their attention towards would be the same I would think.

  4. #14
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    The split between istp and isfp is at the informing/directing level. How does that account for the mechanical ability of one and artistic level of the other
    in the descriptions.

    Does your type change depending on your environment? It makes more sense to me if it did. You could change from isfp to esfp relative to your environment. And if you were more, for example expressive, then you would tend to take on the role of that type in that particular environment.
    Keirsey's latest book, "Brains and Careers" actually delves into this in some detail in more than one area of the book. Here's an example:

    Thus our instincts predispose us to try and to achieve some results more than others, which is to say that we are born with a certain temperament that inclines us to want some results more than others. As our temperament interacts with our social field, we develop our character, which is to say, we become disposed to act in certain ways rather than others. Once preset in our ways, we gradually become set in our ways. Thus we acquire a pattern of habits -- our personality. Thus character (disposition) and temperament (predisposition) are the two sides of habit formation -- personality. The four temperaments -- each with a different brain configuration -- diplomatic, strategic, tactical, logistical -- are more productive and therefore more prized by their companions when they get a job the results of which suit them best.

    -- Brains and Careers, page 23

    He goes on to talk about how all of us can fit any of the sixteen "intelligent roles" that correlate with the sixteen MB types, but how we are naturally predisposed to certain roles, and the others will require much more effort and practice than the ones we are naturally predisposed to.

    I talked about this in the audio blog thingy I did several months ago (not sure if you listened to that, wolfy) where I agreed with Keirsey that my primary role is Composer, but my secondary role would be Performer, which he says normally comes more naturally to Composers than Promoter, Crafter, and much more so than Counselor, Inspector, and so on.

    If you analyze my most repeated endeavors throughout my life, composing - in other words, artistic creation of some sort - has been my primary interest, but I have done plenty of performing, and enjoy it. It just requires more effort and practice than composing, but less so than promoting, counseling, supervising, mobilizing, etc.

    Dr. K also uses the terms "interlinking" and "intersecting" which I confess I don't entirely understand, but it's one of the differences he points out in that whole "informing vs directing" thing.

    So, you see a distinction in "mechanical ability" vs "artistic level" but he says they are in a sense two sides of the same coin, with mechanics in the hands of a Crafter (ISTP) being an artistic endeavor, just a slightly different one than the consonant composition of a Composer.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Accurate understanding of type and its relevance to personality theory which allows for more benign clinical implementation of typology.
    What sort of implementation?
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I have a question for SPs.....I notice a bit of a trend in SPs here preferring Keirsey to other Jungian typology authors. He seems to be quoted the most in the SP forum.

    Is there any reason for this or is it just coincidence? Does he use more "concrete" language or something like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Accurate understanding of type and its relevance to personality theory which allows for more benign clinical implementation of typology.

    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    I love your orneriness...it never ceases to amuse me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, you see a distinction in "mechanical ability" vs "artistic level" but he says they are in a sense two sides of the same coin, with mechanics in the hands of a Crafter (ISTP) being an artistic endeavor, just a slightly different one than the consonant composition of a Composer.
    So it is more that the isfp is about using the things in the environment to create an effect, than expression of self. And an istp is more about manipulating things in the environment to an objective. That makes sense of how they came to those descriptions in Beren's work to me.

  7. #17
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have a question for SPs.....I notice a bit of a trend in SPs here preferring Keirsey to other Jungian typology authors. He seems to be quoted the most in the SP forum.

    Is there any reason for this or is it just coincidence? Does he use more "concrete" language or something like that?
    Yeah, I think it's not surprising that the most "action-oriented" temperament would tend to gravitate to someone who says that our actions are the most important factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    So it is more that the isfp is about using the things in the environment to create an effect, than expression of self. And an istp is more about manipulating things in the environment to an objective. That makes sense of how they came to those descriptions in Beren's work to me.
    I think that's an excellent way to put it. And I think it's why my ISTP little brother is better at losing weight than I am.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

    "I like the sigs with quotes in them from other forum members." -- Oberon

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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think that's an excellent way to put it. And I think it's why my ISTP little brother is better at losing weight than I am.
    That is funny. That is probably why I find it easier to drive myself if I keep my mouth shut. Forces me through to the impact.

  9. #19
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Yeah, I think it's not surprising that the most "action-oriented" temperament would tend to gravitate to someone who says that our actions are the most important factor.
    So defining types based on observable behavior makes it more relevant to you or reality? The heavy theoretical stuff feels too remote from the tangible?

    I suppose that's why I don't like him. Reality has always felt "limiting".
    Although, I can appreciate his temperament classification, but I prefer a looser interpretation of that concept.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I couldn't care less what you think about Keirsey, I have some questions. If you can't answer them or don't want to stay out of the thread. If you want to start a thread on the validity of Keirey go ahead.
    Yes, I know, there is nothing profoundly reproachable about discussing New Age mysticism, Christian fundamentalism and Keirseyan folk typology. The trouble is, typically nothing good comes out of such conversations as ideas become all the more muddled and inevitably debase into gossip and conceptual vacuous self-congratulations or vendettas against other groups of people. It is due to Keirseyan typological methodology that many members of our forum believe that they are outstanding theorists because they scored INTx on their personality test and all ESFx people are insipid. I would be insincere to refrain from advising you to cease wasting your time on such rubbish. If you're interested in the study of temperament or personality theory read Jung's works or browse professional publications in contemporary psychology.

    The trouble with Keirsey's method is that he makes assertions about large groups of people without citing empirical research in sociology to substantiate the relevant claims. The views of the champion of folk typology stand in sharp contrast with that of Jung who focused primarily on the description of mental processes rather than behaviors. Indeed, only by describing cognitive tendencies can one justify a typological inference without conducting carefully controlled empirical investigations. Since Keirsey rejected Jungian methodology, the burden of sociological proof is on him. It is an interesting fact that Dr.Keirsey's personal facebook profile indicates that he has no formal training in the social sciences, philosophy, history, political science or any other academic discipline that is concerned with the study of human nature. As you may see below, all of his academic credentials are in Computer science.

    David Keirsey | Facebook


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    love your orneriness...it never ceases to amuse me.
    Thank you, I surely enjoy observing the MBTI folks reacting to my posts in a manner reminiscent to how Oil-drilling companies responded to the researchers' forewarnings regarding global warming.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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