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Uumlau answers your questions about Fi

uumlau

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I've been answering quite a few questions about Fi since I got on the forum, and they seem to be coming more frequently of late. I'm not quite up for starting a blog or anything, but I'm more than happy to have a small thread where people can ask their questions about Fi, or at least my interpretation of it.

On topic posts include any questions about Fi, or feel free to contribute your own personal description of what Fi is and how it works.

Here is a portion of a conversation about Fi that I was having with Whatever via VM, that the participants and a few witnesses agreed would be a good thread starter.

____________________________________________________

For me, Fi/Te makes perfect sense: the emotions inside of me are subjective and illogical, the world around me is objective and logical. It's actually kind of difficult to think of myself as being subjectively logical within myself, but objectively subjective with other people and the world around me.

I can "do Ti", but I don't have the "Ti values" of requiring logical self consistency. Rather I choose to adopt logical self-consistency for a short while, as needed. I can "do Fi", but it is more personal: rather than choosing to adopt a framework, I go inside myself and open a door. It's kind of like opening the door to a furnace, where one is almost afraid to touch it, for fear of burning oneself. All the other judging functions purposefully avoid this door: Te and Ti ignore it as much as possible. Te excels at ignoring others' "furnaces", while Ti excels at ignoring one's own. Fe mostly ignores one's own, while preoccupied with others: Fe deals with the pain of emotionality indirectly, from a distance.

Fi is the preference to face it all head on. Hence the vibe of "personal integrity." Developing Fi means looking at yourself, metaphorically naked, and understanding yourself, and forgiving yourself.

That last phrase is the most important part, especially if you have something really tough to deal with, inside. The way you open the furnace door and enter without burning yourself (or imploding or something ) is to arm yourself with forgiveness. You adopt a frame of mind and say, "It's OK. Whatever I find, it's OK."

Eventually, you will start deciding that certain aspects of your inner self are "not OK," but that's much more advanced work. If you decide that something isn't OK, and decide to try and "delete it," you might find out the hard way that you just deleted a core operating system file and crash. I believe the INFP tendency to be typically more emotionally unstable derives from this phenomenon: they decide to delete things while they're still too young to understand what they're doing, and they go crazy.

You know the Fi users that seem to have that wonderful aura around them? You know what I mean, it's hard to describe by being specific. They have an internal strength that is huge. They've faced their internal demons, saying, like Gandalf, "You shall not pass!" and won the fight, emerging far stronger than ever before. The demons aren't gone, of course, and may even be unleashed against those who deserve the wrath. Fi knows those personal, subjective demons, and they are under strict control.

Yet in spite of facing such horrors, they are kind and gentle, deliberately so, because of a degree of self-control that belies their seemingly random "P" type. When you violate one of their personal integrity axioms, you then face the indomitable strength of will that has defeated many personal demons.

That's the far end of the journey. Right now, your journey is more like that of a child, discovering wonders and horrors within yourself, and seeing them all anew as if for the first time. Like a child, keeping your mind open about how it all "works", not forcing any external labels or biases on your inner self (which is what Fe will try to do for you), just accepting it all as is. After a long while of cataloging, you eventually start learning what's what, and slowly begin learning how to face it.

Now here's the secret to Fi: be stubborn. Face yourself and do not back down. Don't hurt yourself, don't fight yourself, but just stand there (metaphorically, of course) and face all of that crap you don't want to see. All of the flaws in that wonderful gem that is you. What you'll start to see is that YOU are far more significant than all that random emotional crap inside of you. That YOU have the power to decide what you will and won't do. That YOU can take that which is beautiful in you and nourish it and make it grow to the point that it brightens everything and everyone around you. That YOU can stand up to all those fears and worries and hurts ... and instead of deleting them, give them so much love that they become lessons instead of wounds.
 

PeaceBaby

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I respect you uumlau for your gesture to explain Fi, as you understand and experience it. And I enjoy your contributions here on the forum, so I offer the following with love, so I hope you receive it in the spirit of my intent.

The issue for me is that Fi is always going to be a child function for you; indeed, in your experience Fi will much more naturally subjugate to Te. You regard Fi as a parent does a child - you even use the word above, and I believe you have referenced it as such before. So this Te "parental discipline" that you subject to Fi, which to you likely comes readily, is not natural to many Fi users.

You let Fi "out to play" so to speak, and neatly tuck it away when you are tired of having it underfoot. It's a far different thing to have the "child" screaming at you non-stop and you cannot soothe it nor can you simply abandon it or shut it up with candy or promises or logic.

Learning to manage Fi wisely is no small task. One uses many tools, but all come with consequences too. I will expand on that in a later post.

Is the courage to face one's demons an act of being stubborn? It's a far greater truth to stand sobbing amidst the internal emotional wreckage that defines you at some point and simply accept who you are. This is not being stubborn; this is the antithesis of stubborn. This is yielding, accepting. One must realize too that even in acceptance one simply cannot stay in that place and relive pain over and over again. The greater wisdom is to yield - to be borne anew and see the world again through the eyes that accept whatever comes. To move forward knowing, trusting that you will be OK.

I am not "far more significant than all that random emotional crap inside of you" - I am significant even with it, I AM emotions, I AM values, I FEEL, and you know what - that's OK. Most of my life has been spent trying to conform to other people's expectations and experience, people who tell me not to care so much, not to feel so much, not to be emotional (like it's a dirty word) ... most of my issues have been created trying to make myself fit into a world that does not share my priorities rather than having emotions in the first place.

I am significant because I have values and because I feel. That is the entire difference in our experience.

I don't mean to be harsh or minimize your experience of Fi in the least. I simply want you to see that in order to harness the true power of Fi, you must not treat it as a child. Nor answer questions about Fi as a parent would a child. That could be patronizing and Fi deserves a deeper respect, to have a seat at the "grown-ups" table.
 

VagrantFarce

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I can "do Fi", but it is more personal: rather than choosing to adopt a framework, I go inside myself and open a door. It's kind of like opening the door to a furnace, where one is almost afraid to touch it, for fear of burning oneself. All the other judging functions purposefully avoid this door: Te and Ti ignore it as much as possible. Te excels at ignoring others' "furnaces", while Ti excels at ignoring one's own. Fe mostly ignores one's own, while preoccupied with others: Fe deals with the pain of emotionality indirectly, from a distance.

How's that for inferior Se. :laugh:

This post does help a lot, though - Feeling functions (as far as I can tell) concern themselves with how we determine our identities as individuals. So Fi creates a need to generate and maintain an internally congruent identity - "this is who I am, and it transcends the current moment" - whereas Fe creates a need to generate and maintain an externally congruent identity - "I am am defined by my connection (or lack of connection) to others, and I am whoever I choose to be in the moment".

I'm reposting these videos because I feel they express the two attitudes very well (and certainly much better than I ever will):

[youtube=dnFsjuYuMvg]Fe[/youtube]

[youtube=cufk6MMwd5o]Fi[/youtube]
 
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uumlau, how can I hear my Fi when my Te is the dominating force in my universe?
How can I accept what I'm hearing?
How can I let myself act on Fi?
How can I control my Te, so it won't make me ashamed of my Fi?
I would like to be able to think that my feelings are valid/rational/justified, or whatever.

Maybe I'm not understanding Fi, but, I'd really like to know how they can co-exist within me.
 

INTP

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whats Fi like in intp?
 

sculpting

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While my innate FPness may be bigger than Mr U's, his skill at said usage far, far exceeds my own.....

I think he needs more hugs. :hug:

I would suggest we listen as perhaps we innate Fi doms and auxs learn to improve our Fi via trial and error but arent always so clear how we ended up where we are-where an INTJ makes it a point of study.

(For the record I appear to be an Fi fail, but am getting tutoring after school)
 

sculpting

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I am significant because I have values and because I feel. That is the entire difference in our experience.

I don't mean to be harsh or minimize your experience of Fi in the least. I simply want you to see that in order to harness the true power of Fi, you must not treat it as a child. Nor answer questions about Fi as a parent would a child. That could be patronizing and Fi deserves a deeper respect, to have a seat at the "grown-ups" table.

Perhaps you and U can tag team this thread?

I say this as I have known very few INFPs in my life. This last week I spent four days with two INFPs.

I cant emphasize how much I learned by their indirect comments. It was like they would insert subtle comments here and there-which I have always felt were a bit passive aggressive in text form-yet when spoken, the comments were said in just the right way, inserted in just the right places.

A subtle comment would enter my mind and then spiral into rounds of internal self questioning and reappraisal of how I handled situations leading to an "Ah, I totally see how I have mishandling this situation." Which I could then apply to other situations.

The gentle, mentored way of learning Fi from another's wisdom. Maybe this is the role of INFPs?

(As opposed to the "drag your face down the asphalt street vomiting emo onto three continents" variety of Fi learning)
 

miss fortune

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:laugh: the discussion started because I, user of Fe, claimed that Fi feels cold to me...

I found it amusing that a Te-Fi user would think that a Ti-Fe combination would be odd since the opposite is true to me, as well :)

I had been curious as to what exactly is this Fi thing and how am I, possibly site's lowest tester in Fi on functions test (the questions on it even confused me :boohoo:), supposed to develop something so strange, foreign and possibly evil? :thelook:

hope this puts it in context for you a bit peacebaby! :cheese:
 

uumlau

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uumlau, how can I hear my Fi when my Te is the dominating force in my universe?
How can I accept what I'm hearing?
How can I let myself act on Fi?
How can I control my Te, so it won't make me ashamed of my Fi?
I would like to be able to think that my feelings are valid/rational/justified, or whatever.

Maybe I'm not understanding Fi, but, I'd really like to know how they can co-exist within me.

Fi isn't something you listen to, any more than Te dominates your universe.

Rather, you have made some choices, mostly without realizing it. The choices are so ingrained, we aren't sure how much is nature and how much is nurture.

To you, as a Te dom, just about every choice you make is based on the objective circumstances in the world around you. So long as you make your choices based on that, you'll usually be happy and contented, but you'll be missing out on some stuff and confused by other stuff.

One of the choices you've made is that feelings don't matter. They get in the way. Mostly, you ignore how others feel, and you pay attention to how you feel only to the barest degree to not go insane. You satisfy them they way one would a small child crying out for attention: you try to figure out what the child wants, and give it so the crying will stop. Yet you look for things to satisfy it, rather than give it that which is obvious: e.g., a nice big hug.

I'm not inferior Fi, so I don't know how to express it to you so you understand intuitively. But basically, you're "happy" to ignore feelings, especially troublesome feelings. As you get older, you will become less satisfied with that choice. Then you will choose to face them.

When you choose to face your feelings, then you'll start figuring out how to deal with them on their own terms, rather than in objective terms. You will learn things about who you are and what you really want.

The reason you haven't done so yet is just time. You're still figuring other things out. Your current approach is very good for figuring those other things out, and you've been able to postpone any major confrontation with feelings for a while (I'm going by your type, here, of course - you may have had some intense experiences of which I do not know, and affected you more deeply than I suggest). Eventually, that confrontation will be postponed no longer.

When you finally confront yourself, the result will be a stronger Fi than you used to have, and you'll understand how Fi and Te fit together: use Te to figure out the clearly objective problems, and Fi to figure out the clearly subjective problems. Fi, given time, will start to make very good choices that logically, objectively are complete nonsense. But logic and objectivity have very little to do with the choices that concern what you really want out of life and what kind of person you choose to be.
 

uumlau

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whats Fi like in intp?

I'm not sure how you regard it, but my initial post was for an ESTP (whatever), who technically doesn't have Fi except as a shadow in MBTI terms, but was curious how to develop it.

I provided a guide (that particular post tailored to Whatever), on "how to arrive at processing in an Fi way" and "how to know that you're actually working with Fi and not something else." As an INTP, it should mostly apply to you, but it might be missing a key element that would make it "click" for you.

One thing to keep in mind is that Fi isn't about "being emo," but rather its how to deal with being emo. People who are "emo" tend to really need to develop Fi, and do so. Also, a lot of the development for an emo person can tend to happen out where everyone can see it, exposing one's personal immaturity and creating an unfavorable impression.

Should you start to work on Fi, that wouldn't make you "emo." Mostly it would be an exercise in dropping Ti for just a bit, and letting yourself go deep inside and check on your own feelings on your own terms.

Feel free to ask more specific questions, but as for your general open-ended question, I think my initial post in the thread plus my comments here should suffice.
 

Jeffster

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What makes Fi superior to Fo or Fum?
 

uumlau

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I respect you uumlau for your gesture to explain Fi, as you understand and experience it. And I enjoy your contributions here on the forum, so I offer the following with love, so I hope you receive it in the spirit of my intent.
Of course, PB. I always welcome your input.
The issue for me is that Fi is always going to be a child function for you; indeed, in your experience Fi will much more naturally subjugate to Te. You regard Fi as a parent does a child - you even use the word above, and I believe you have referenced it as such before. So this Te "parental discipline" that you subject to Fi, which to you likely comes readily, is not natural to many Fi users.
Nope. However, it might be a useful thing to learn for Fi dom/aux, just as Fi is a useful thing to learn for Te dom/aux.

You let Fi "out to play" so to speak, and neatly tuck it away when you are tired of having it underfoot.
That's how it used to be. :)

It's a far different thing to have the "child" screaming at you non-stop and you cannot soothe it nor can you simply abandon it or shut it up with candy or promises or logic.
Agreed.

And it's a far different thing to listen to the "child" even when she barely whispers.
Is the courage to face one's demons an act of being stubborn? It's a far greater truth to stand sobbing amidst the internal emotional wreckage that defines you at some point and simply accept who you are. This is not being stubborn; this is the antithesis of stubborn. This is yielding, accepting. One must realize too that even in acceptance one simply cannot stay in that place and relive pain over and over again. The greater wisdom is to yield - to be borne anew and see the world again through the eyes that accept whatever comes. To move forward knowing, trusting that you will be OK.
:yes:

The "stubborn" of which I spoke is one of many "training wheels" lessons. The point is to stay there and take it. After doing that, it gradually becomes possible to accept (note my points about "It's OK" and "self-forgiveness").

I am not "far more significant than all that random emotional crap inside of you" - I am significant even with it, I AM emotions, I AM values, I FEEL, and you know what - that's OK. Most of my life has been spent trying to conform to other people's expectations and experience, people who tell me not to care so much, not to feel so much, not to be emotional (like it's a dirty word) ... most of my issues have been created trying to make myself fit into a world that does not share my priorities rather than having emotions in the first place.
:yes:
I don't have the same priorities as you, but yes. I can mostly agree with this.

One slight way in which I disagree (and maybe you mean this, too, but I'm not seeing it), is that there is a "me" that goes far beyond any labels. Whatever this "me" is that makes decisions. Emotions are a part of me. Thoughts are a part of me. But even then, they're just glimpses: there's more to me than that. The emotions are, of course, an essential part of me, and I do a disservice to ignore them. Similarly, my objective thinking is an essential part of me, as well, and I do a disservice to ignore that. It's all me, but no individual piece "is me" when taken alone.


I am significant because I have values and because I feel. That is the entire difference in our experience.
Yes, that is a difference in our experience.

I would tell you that you are significant for far more essential reasons than those you cite. Hopefully you understand what I mean, because words fail me, here.

I don't mean to be harsh or minimize your experience of Fi in the least.
You didn't.

I simply want you to see that in order to harness the true power of Fi, you must not treat it as a child.
Well said.

In one of my earlier encounters with Fi, anthropomorphizing it a bit, I was told in no uncertain terms, "I am nobody's f-cking inner child."

However, I believe that one in the early stages of developing Fi should treat one's feelings that way. It should be in a loving way, that encourages growth, not just gratuitously satisfying feelings in order to get it to just "shut up." The key is to be gentle, not harsh, at first, because the pain is such that one will simply avoid the experience and learn nothing, if there is too much pain. Later on, the harsher lessons are easier to learn.

Let's just say that my Fi had to "learn for itself" that it was no longer a child.

Nor answer questions about Fi as a parent would a child. That could be patronizing and Fi deserves a deeper respect, to have a seat at the "grown-ups" table.

Agreed.

Please do call me out on it if I should seem to offer any disrespect. You input in this thread is much appreciated.
 
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*subscribed* I really wanna learn how to control, understand and/or use Fi. I'm at the point in my life where I either wanna kill it or seriously improve it.
 

gromit

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uumlau, in your personal journey, did you begin to explore Fi only once you had terminology for it (once you were aware of the theory "Fi" and other cognitive functions) or do you describe the process now in terms of Fi and Ni/Te, but when you commenced your exploration you had other language to describe it to yourself?
 

uumlau

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uumlau, in your personal journey, did you begin to explore Fi only once you had terminology for it (once you were aware of the theory "Fi" and other cognitive functions) or do you describe the process now in terms of Fi and Ni/Te, but when you commenced your exploration you had other language to describe it to yourself?

I didn't have terminology for it for a long time.

My first initial experience was with a dream, that turned into a lucid dream.

I was maybe 8 or 9 years old, and running from a monster. It was a less fearsome monster than most (I've had dreams with a T-Rex peeking in through a 2nd or 3rd story window: :horor:) But it was by no means not scary.

Then at some point something came over me. I stopped. I turned around to face it. It stopped in confusion. I chuckled.

Then I just felt some kind of warm energy in me. I pointed at the monster and zapped it with a white beam of energy. It disintegrated.

Then it reformed, in the manner that dream-monsters never quite die.

I zapped it again.

Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap-> ... you get the idea.

Then the next time it started to reform, I just kind of raised an eyebrow at it. It didn't reform that time.

I have not had a frightening nightmare ever since. Embarrassing, yes; frightening, no. ;)

There is a post in another thread in which I described Fi has holding this bright light (like the sun) in your hands and putting it inside where it warms your heart. This dream is the primordial source of that image for me.

My next step on the Fi trip was Erich Fromm's "The Art of Loving", which I'd read in a "great books" class as a senior in high school. The central message of that is that love is an act of will, not merely a feeling. This has become one of my core "Fi axioms". Feeling alone is not enough. Neither is choice alone enough. Fi is the "feeling-choice." (My statements here go far beyond what Fromm was advocating. He reads more like an INTP, or maybe J but I doubt it, where "logically" love has to be an act of will, because feeling alone is fickle and cannot really love.)

Then about 15 years later, I'm going through some of the toughest times in my life, that made me into who I am now. All of the choices I made in that period were long before I knew MBTI and used these terms to describe it.

Two books in particular helped me through that period, both by Stephen Mitchell: The Tao Te Ching, and The Gospel According to Jesus.

That Tao translation is the source of my "lake" metaphor for Fi:

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?

Sharing the lake metaphor with a friend on another forum resulted in her contribution of rivers or streams representing Fe.

His "Gospel" book is rather heretical, leaving out the "mythological" parts, but it does a very good job at highlighting the spiritual knowledge that Jesus was trying to convey.

Only after all of that, and only after taking up dancing and becoming more social, was I (re)introduced to MBTI. (My first introduction typed me as ISTJ, which was sort of true, but not really, so I had dismissed MBTI as bogus.) After about 3 months of discussing MBTI and learning about it, I started making connections with respect to what Ni and Fi meant, and linked it back to earlier lessons, and I saw how Fi described the way I approached emotions.

When I talk about Fi, here, Fi is the sum of all of that kind of knowledge that I've learned. In no way do I regard my knowledge in that regard as complete. After having so many people ask about Fi, however, I realized that while I could give no definitive lessons, I could "point the way," and help them discover it for themselves, on their own terms.
 

Virtual ghost

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INTJ with unicorn avatar that talks about Fi ? :thelook:


I am afraid to admit it but NFPs seem too be winning at the moment
 

gromit

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Thank you.

Follow-up question: do you use Fi as the primary language to describe it? Is it the term you have found that best "fits" the concept, or do you use it here because it's something that people can understand, because it's the language spoken on the forum?

p.s. I clicked the The Tao Te Ching link :happy2: AHHHH!!! Just reading the first chapter I sort of went crazy... in a good way... like I cannot wait to read more and more and think about it in relation to everything else. And then as I am asking you all of these questions it somehow it clicks a little bit in my mind.

The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

So, I guess that is why I ask the questions... on some levels I am a little bit skeptical of limiting something to one name... but then giving a label of some kind is how we can communicate with other people and sort through things ourselves. It is like a tension between describing it enough to make SOME sense of it and not describing it so much that it becomes the description in our minds and we cannot perceive more of it revealed to us.

And then I can feel that sentence I just wrote echoing, echoing, echoing against all of these different ideas I've heard from all these other places...

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

I just want it to sit there and echo around a little bit or something.



Sorry sorry sorry... this is not the thread topic at all. I am just so excited. I couldn't contain myself. :blush:
 

uumlau

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Thank you.

Follow-up question: do you use Fi as the primary language to describe it? Is it the term you have found that best "fits" the concept, or do you use it here because it's something that people can understand, because it's the language spoken on the forum?

p.s. I clicked the The Tao Te Ching link :happy2: AHHHH!!! Just reading the first chapter I sort of went crazy... in a good way... like I cannot wait to read more and more and think about it in relation to everything else. And then as I am asking you all of these questions it somehow it clicks a little bit in my mind.

The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

So, I guess that is why I ask the questions... on some levels I am a little bit skeptical of limiting something to one name... but then giving a label of some kind is how we can communicate with other people and sort through things ourselves. It is like a tension between describing it enough to make SOME sense of it and not describing it so much that it becomes the description in our minds and we cannot perceive more of it revealed to us.

And then I can feel that sentence I just wrote echoing, echoing, echoing against all of these different ideas I've heard from all these other places...

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

I just want it to sit there and echo around a little bit or something.



Sorry sorry sorry... this is not the thread topic at all. I am just so excited. I couldn't contain myself. :blush:

It's all good. There's a lot of Fi in there, but there is even more Ni.

The whole idea is to let it "echo around." It's rather introverted, and not easily given to verbalization. The Fi part is, in particular, letting go of the "good/bad" connotations of things, and understanding what they are. This is very similar to the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes of which I spoke. Different paths to the same thing.
 
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