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  1. #81
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Use Ti to logically run down paths that "are not wrong". In certain instances you will run across Fi. The hardest part is that you must be able to keep yourself in the dark, to be able to hide certain things. This opens up the possibilities for Ti to explore in an Fi manner. You have to know your logic and know what causes what and be able to hide, to convince yourself. Basically take control of the logical path. You know how some people will turn the TV off when previews come on or refuse to hear how a game turns out. You must take that approach with logic. Its really hard to do for a Ti dom as I have to play heavily with Se and Ni and find things that are "not wrong". This is scary because of the paths it leads down and the possible truths that get revealed. What you need to reach this is security and comfort. Basically the security and comfort that puts Se and Ni back in place from the path it went down. A truth that Se can sense that removes all doubt that you reach going down those other paths.
    Well said, Poki.

    Ti's strength and weakness is that desire to not be wrong. The strength is obvious. The weakness is that, in its subjectivity, Ti might actually be wrong about something, and all the paths it says "are not wrong" actually are wrong, and you don't realize it, because all of your logical requirements have been met. Fi has this same issue. It will insist upon upholding values that "feel right," but because it is subjective and may not have reflected upon the implications of those values well, it does not realize that the values (or combination thereof) are wrong.

    For both Fi and Ti, this is where intuition becomes useful, introducing other possibilities that might be right, and in the event of a severe contradiction, will cause Fi or Ti to reevaluate and establish better internal values. To access intuition, one must drop the "right/wrong" thinking, and substitute the "WTF" or "maybe" thinking of intuition.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    So you establish a boundary condition on the "problem" at hand-that you must not cross an Fi path? Thus all logical solutions are valid, all Ti paths can be followed-except those which cross an Fi path? And you use Se and Ni to try and feel out where those Fi paths are? And you use security and comfort as guides to where the Fi path is? (have an Fe-ish Fi hug, cause Ijust made all that stuff up I dunno... but your SeNi is like a puzzle!)
    Its hard to define what a boundary condition is though. I leverage so many things in my external world that am able to limit the boundaries I must put up. All Ti paths can be followed except those which I cannot currently handle the Fi involved. It would be like the furnace door scenario. I open these doors, but I do so at my own pace and that allows me to maintain my own balance.

    Ti logic has multiple paths that are "not wrong" and I can choose anyone of these paths, they are truths, but not all encompassing. Because they are truths I can follow them without fear of leading down a Fi path I am not ready to go down. They will loop back and as long as I choose the same path I will hit this logical loop. Ti sees many logical paths and I may go down one, hit an Fi area I am not ready to go down, step back and take another path. I become aware of this path and since I havnt proceeded down it I can twist and mangle my perception creating psuedo logical paths exploring Fi in a safe manner. If Fi becomes to scary I can step back and go down another path that is true, sometimes I go to far down and it takes time to step back as I have to almost forget that path. I dont remember every path I go down. This is why being subjectively logically true is very important for me. I have lots of doors that are closed and certain doors need to be opened and explored fully before others. Its really complicated to explain.

    I have never seen Fi in a child-parent manner. Just something that needs to be worked with and balanced in the overall progression of existance.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well said, Poki.

    Ti's strength and weakness is that desire to not be wrong. The strength is obvious. The weakness is that, in its subjectivity, Ti might actually be wrong about something, and all the paths it says "are not wrong" actually are wrong, and you don't realize it, because all of your logical requirements have been met. Fi has this same issue. It will insist upon upholding values that "feel right," but because it is subjective and may not have reflected upon the implications of those values well, it does not realize that the values (or combination thereof) are wrong.

    For both Fi and Ti, this is where intuition becomes useful, introducing other possibilities that might be right, and in the event of a severe contradiction, will cause Fi or Ti to reevaluate and establish better internal values. To access intuition, one must drop the "right/wrong" thinking, and substitute the "WTF" or "maybe" thinking of intuition.
    I fall back into Se as a safety and a reset. Lets get back to what I see, reset the path I am on. Kinda like in a racing game when you take a wrong path and the game picks you up and places you back on the right path. The right path for me is a combination of Se mixed with objectivity and would be like an arrow that just points toward the right direction.

    edit: The problem I see with your statement and how it relates to Ti is that what is "not wrong" has the possibility of being right so how do I differentiate other "not wrong possibilities with subjective not wrong possibilities". "possibilities that might be right" are the same as "possibilities that are not wrong."
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #84
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Thank you for this thread, uumlau.

    One frustrating thing about Fi is that it's difficult to really have an open discussion about what is Fi. Fi discussions have a tendency to devolve into people talking about themselves, which can lead to stepping on toes as people say, "Fi isn't like that, let me explain what I'm like what Fi is really like."

    I appreciate this thread because your attempts to deconstruct Fi through a different lens has provided me insight I hadn't previously considered. I strongly agree with many aspects of your first post. (I hope to check out your epic axiom post above when I have a bit more time.)

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi is the preference to face it all head on. Hence the vibe of "personal integrity." Developing Fi means looking at yourself, metaphorically naked, and understanding yourself, and forgiving yourself.

    That last phrase is the most important part, especially if you have something really tough to deal with, inside. The way you open the furnace door and enter without burning yourself (or imploding or something ) is to arm yourself with forgiveness. You adopt a frame of mind and say, "It's OK. Whatever I find, it's OK."
    Acceptance comes before forgiveness.

    Eventually, you will start deciding that certain aspects of your inner self are "not OK," but that's much more advanced work. If you decide that something isn't OK, and decide to try and "delete it," you might find out the hard way that you just deleted a core operating system file and crash. I believe the INFP tendency to be typically more emotionally unstable derives from this phenomenon: they decide to delete things while they're still too young to understand what they're doing, and they go crazy.
    Great insight, and I strongly agree with it. I enjoyed your metaphor to boot.

    That's the far end of the journey. Right now, your journey is more like that of a child, discovering wonders and horrors within yourself, and seeing them all anew as if for the first time. Like a child, keeping your mind open about how it all "works", not forcing any external labels or biases on your inner self (which is what Fe will try to do for you), just accepting it all as is. After a long while of cataloging, you eventually start learning what's what, and slowly begin learning how to face it.

    Now here's the secret to Fi: be stubborn. Face yourself and do not back down. Don't hurt yourself, don't fight yourself, but just stand there (metaphorically, of course) and face all of that crap you don't want to see. All of the flaws in that wonderful gem that is you. What you'll start to see is that YOU are far more significant than all that random emotional crap inside of you. That YOU have the power to decide what you will and won't do. That YOU can take that which is beautiful in you and nourish it and make it grow to the point that it brightens everything and everyone around you. That YOU can stand up to all those fears and worries and hurts ... and instead of deleting them, give them so much love that they become lessons instead of wounds.
    May I offer my opinion?

    In order to understand something, we must first be willing accept it. I can see how it would take stubbornness for a T to submit to Fi, so I find this to be a very insightful first step. Once you gain that stubbornness, that's where acceptance comes in. Acceptance of the self, whatever you find. (Submission is also a good term others have used.) With that, the defensive mechanisms come down, and it becomes possible to understand.

    From there, change becomes possible.

  5. #85
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Acceptance comes before forgiveness.


    May I offer my opinion?

    In order to understand something, we must first be willing accept it. I can see how it would take stubbornness for a T to submit to Fi, so I find this to be a very insightful first step. Once you gain that stubbornness, that's where acceptance comes in. Acceptance of the self, whatever you find. (Submission is also a good term others have used.) With that, the defensive mechanisms come down, and it becomes possible to understand.

    From there, change becomes possible.
    I don't disagree at all. Acceptance comes first. I personally tend to lump acceptance and forgiveness into the same attitude of openness. They are not technically the same thing, but in my mind they are so intertwined that I can easily forget that others separate them.

    Note that I say: "It's OK, whatever I find," where you only say it slightly differently, "Acceptance of the self, whatever you find."

    Thank you so much for your kind words, Udog. I hope we all learn a lot from this thread. I am particularly interested in what insights are new and intriguing to you. I find it fascinating to learn what things other people don't find obvious. It's an affliction of the INTJ which really hinders communication: I'll assume that others see what I see, but they don't, and thus my efforts to convey ideas will fail in such cases.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #86
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't disagree at all. Acceptance comes first. I personally tend to lump acceptance and forgiveness into the same attitude of openness. They are not technically the same thing, but in my mind they are so intertwined that I can easily forget that others separate them.

    Note that I say: "It's OK, whatever I find," where you only say it slightly differently, "Acceptance of the self, whatever you find."
    So you and I 99% agree...

    Truthfully, if it's Fi people wish to analyze, they should make a note of how you and I disagree, rather than agree. See, we share pretty much the same belief, but we each chose the best language that resonates within us. We had different journeys with different sources for input, and ended up taking our own interpretations for what I believe to be a more universal concept. For example, I say that we must "accept" and then "forgive". I separate them out as distinct processes. You focus more on the concept of "openness", making a side note that openness must consist of acceptance and forgiveness. (If I understand you correctly, I may not!)

    The process of how we discovered and ultimately modeled these concepts... that's Fi (with use of other functions, admittedly). How we arrange the concepts differently... there's a good deal of Fi in that as well. From here, I think you and I could actually have a potentially interesting debate on why our models differ (if only slightly, in this case).

    Too often, discussion on Fi focuses on the fact that you say OK and I say accept, and because to me it's ACCEPT, your saying it's okay threatens my view point that we must accept. This is why I think it's so hard to have discussions with Fi.

    Thank you so much for your kind words, Udog. I hope we all learn a lot from this thread. I am particularly interested in what insights are new and intriguing to you. I find it fascinating to learn what things other people don't find obvious. It's an affliction of the INTJ which really hinders communication: I'll assume that others see what I see, but they don't, and thus my efforts to convey ideas will fail in such cases.
    Stubbornness is a good one. I never had to be stubborn to get a feel for what I'm feeling... I have no furnace door, but rather, I learned tricks to simply stay far, far away from the furnace altogether. I had to be stubborn to STAY and face it, though.

    You viewing Fi as a child, one that must learn to grow and mature, is another good one.

    Other insights more involve how you expressed what you said (like above), and are harder for me to explain.

  7. #87
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    The process of how we discovered and ultimately modeled these concepts... that's Fi (with use of other functions, admittedly). How we arrange the concepts differently... there's a good deal of Fi in that as well. From here, I think you and I could actually have a potentially interesting debate on why our models differ (if only slightly, in this case).

    Too often, discussion on Fi focuses on the fact that you say OK and I say accept, and because to me it's ACCEPT, your saying it's okay threatens my view point that we must accept. This is why I think it's so hard to have discussions with Fi.


    Stubbornness is a good one. I never had to be stubborn to get a feel for what I'm feeling... I have no furnace door, but rather, I learned tricks to simply stay far, far away from the furnace altogether. I had to be stubborn to STAY and face it, though.
    Heck, you were probably IN the furnace for a long while.

    You viewing Fi as a child, one that must learn to grow and mature, is another good one.
    Yeah, it makes more sense if you're an adult and Fi is still undeveloped, and less sense if you've grown up with it and it's already fairly mature by the time you learn MBTI.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #88
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Too many multi-quotes, but here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What if one is insisting that the world is flat?

    Cannot some Fi axioms can be wrong or need fine tuning?
    The technically correct answer is of course, yes.

    However, that's the thing about an axiom - it is accepted as and appears to be a self-evident undeniable truth. If an axiom is exposed to data that requires a reexamination of said axiom, it would require a gigantically massive paradigm shift.

    It would be life-changing. Potentially enlightening for some, devastating for others. Hopefully, the Fi axioms one adopts throughout childhood are sound, for syllogisms are thusly branched off from that core of understanding, inner knowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    It took me quite a while to learn how to 'tone' it down without being inauthentic (and it still costs me a lot of effort to this day) in order to make it palatable to others.
    I like this; I learned early that most people want the light, they want your positivity and happiness, but they don't want the "full package", they don't want your frustrations or darker moments - I think experiences like this are very foundational to enneagram type. And from that, how each type appears to manifest in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so people who "wrongly" cross a Fi's core values are like an "obtuse idiot" is to a Ti person
    That's probably a fair comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think of "Fi values" as being overarching axioms, analogous to "parallel lines don't intersect."
    I don't think all are axioms. Fi theorems are built on core axioms, each with an hypothesis and conclusion, and over time, are then "proven" (or not) by practical experience. (In fact, I don't think there are that many axioms at all. They tend to be global and few.) Theorems by their nature invite examination and this is not as threatening to an Fi user to assess the initial hypothesis.

    Relating to Fi, for an INFP, Si comes into play as a tertiary function to remind us how we felt the last time "event x" occurred and this data helps prove or disprove the theorem. But, it takes great care and patience to realize that even though a new experience may be similar to "event x", it is not EXACTLY the same and thus may not realize the same emotional result.

    Let's try something relatable: You have a few "bad" dentist appointments. You conclude that "Going to the Dentist is Painful". To prevent this from becoming a theorem that goes unchallenged, one must question all the assumptions that go into that conclusion: I don't have the same work done each time, my physical condition is not physiologically exact each time, freezing works more effectively in different areas of the mouth, different dentists are "better" etc.etc.

    This is Ne / Te working I think ...

    Edit: And too, some people will find examining theorems threatening until they gain greater life experience, confidence and analytical capability. Although many folks will hardly use this kind of language to do so ...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The Fi feelings/readings/interpretations all derive from these very particular axioms. The really funny part is that you "just know" that an axiom has been violated, but it takes a while to figure out "why."
    I think it takes a while to articulate why; inside you know the answer. One need not wait for the ability to articulate to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It all interlinks in a subjective way, and it takes time to parse through and interpret it and verbalize it coherently (with Te for example). All of the Fi judgments of good/bad/right/wrong are based on the Fi axioms, thus they are entirely derivative. That's part of the reason why you need to drop your prior concepts of right/wrong when reevaluating Fi axioms.
    I find this interesting - I like how you are dissecting it. I would prefer the word "theorem" as described above. And - basically in the rest of the post. Axioms are HUGE; they are not the smaller branches on the tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Te has a very important role, here. Te is able to objectively determine that your axioms suck. It's no good at figuring out what they "should be," but it's great for telling Fi to go back to the drawing board and try again. It can help you see the implications of a set of values before deciding to adopt them. Ne, for xNFPs, can serve a similar role, if well-trained, for more quickly identifying potential downfalls than the slightly-too-objective Te.
    This is where we will disagree - unlike theorems, Te is not "good" at saying that certain axioms suck. (An axiom being that underlying, unprovable principle.) In fact, instinctively I think examination of axioms with Te can sometimes be a spectacular personal failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    All of these Fi-rules are very fundamental. They don't get very specific, e.g., "always take out the trash without being asked to do it." That might be a "rule" that is implied by one of the core axioms, but it would never be a core axiom/value itself.
    Insert the theorem prior to the creation of Fi rules. Fi rules are built on Fi theorems premised on Fi axioms.

    Rules can be bent, rules can be broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    So projecting a sense of happiness and light emotions when you're not feeling it, can be done to self-soothe, to soothe others around you, to try and light at least a spark of inspiration in the room, but it often feels false and empty inside. Though it has its perks...just as the dark, gloomy faux values push people away and give you time to brood, this does the reverse: it attracts people and gets you the nurturing you need and often the 'fake it till you make it' principle comes true. In attracting people, you actually start to feel differently and you start to respond naturally in this lighthearted manner because those people lift your spirit. Same for the gloomy stuff: defending yourself isn't a bad thing as it gives you time to lick your wounds. In both cases though the duration of the use of 'faux' values to cope with life should be short. To get stuck in a vicious circle is to fase a life of emotional emptiness which ime translates into misery, which ever way you turn.
    Very relatable; and a nice post Satine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Uumlau, I know what you're getting at, and that is the natural state we're in when we're in balance, but I think you underestimate the magnetic pull some of us have to please others, especially when we're feeling less than secure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I used to wait tables for several years. I would turn into a spastic glow worm of love. I would shine at my customers and they would shine back. Since it was short term-no emotional commitment or debt, it was okay and felt very nice. Making them happy made me happy. I emotionally mirrored their response, and it amplified my own. happy people=happy me. I actually feel others happiness much more strongly than my own. Making other people feel joy is like getting a hit of speed for me-it is energizing and fills me with happiness and pleasure-I did something of value.
    That shine can be addicting, yes. It's nice to see people shine, so you shine more and they shine more, then you come to realize, all some want is your shine. Hard to be in good balance, as Satine points out so well in the posts above.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    For both Fi and Ti, this is where intuition becomes useful, introducing other possibilities that might be right, and in the event of a severe contradiction, will cause Fi or Ti to reevaluate and establish better internal values. To access intuition, one must drop the "right/wrong" thinking, and substitute the "WTF" or "maybe" thinking of intuition.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    One frustrating thing about Fi is that it's difficult to really have an open discussion about what is Fi. Fi discussions have a tendency to devolve into people talking about themselves, which can lead to stepping on toes as people say, "Fi isn't like that, let me explain what I'm like what Fi is really like."
    Agreed.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    so people who "wrongly" cross a Fi's core values are like an "obtuse idiot" is to a Ti person
    Honestly speaking for myself I often think such people are morally corrupt, that they can't help it because they are weak in that way and I feel pity for them. And I make a note to be wary of them and not let them in too deeply. They never know.

  10. #90
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Honestly speaking for myself I often think such people are morally corrupt, that they can't help it because they are weak in that way and I feel pity for them. And I make a note to be wary of them and not let them in too deeply. They never know.
    Yes, they are like morally corrupt obtuse idiots ...

    Oh but still ...

    ---

    Now I am dissecting some of my own thoughts: some things that are not axioms are accepted and treated like axioms.

    For example, some people view the Bible as an axiom - the indisputable word of God.

    If evidence were to surface tomorrow to concretely, undeniably refute that, it would be shattering.

    ---

    Fi doesn't really exist in an either / or world though - there are infinite shades of grey. Only certain core axioms appear in that "black and white" format. Perhaps the key is being able to discern between axioms, theorems and rules ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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