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  1. #71
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Uumlau, I know what you're getting at, and that is the natural state we're in when we're in balance, but I think you underestimate the magnetic pull some of us have to please others, especially when we're feeling less than secure.
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  2. #72
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Uumlau, I know what you're getting at, and that is the natural state we're in when we're in balance, but I think you underestimate the magnetic pull some of us have to please others, especially when we're feeling less than secure.


    I understand. I've this impenetrable armor of "no Fe". I don't give a damn about "pleasing others" as a goal in and of itself. I've a more objective goal of "figure out something that works, and people will generally not object, and might even be rather pleased."

    When the primary goal is to please others, it inadvertently subsumes one's own will to do anything else.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #73
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    And in that respect, we could stand to gain substantially with an INTJ as a rolemodel
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  4. #74
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    <-- has been described as a "people pleaser"

    the hardest thing for those of us who are Ti people with TRYING to develop Fi is that the two functions actually work in a somewhat similar manner- how are you supposed to develop one when the function that, in a way, takes it's place is quite strong?

    You can't turn off Ti to focus on another interior analytical function really... it is, unfortunatly, not like a light switch.

    It's like asking a right handed batter to switch to using his/her left hand in a way- switching away from what we're good at, understand and are strong at to something odd and weird that might mess things up in a way
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #75
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I have the same problem with Ti. I *hate* using it, I feel like I'm flying blind and nothing feels alive to me. I admire it greatly though in Ti-doms..in their hands it just seems so easy and clear *sigh*
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  6. #76
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    = gromit

    I have tried to explain it to a couple people and they just cant seem to understand it. Why is it bad to want to make people happy? they ask...

    What is to be done here?
    Hmmm... I kinda understand this.

    I used to wait tables for several years. I would turn into a spastic glow worm of love. I would shine at my customers and they would shine back. Since it was short term-no emotional commitment or debt, it was okay and felt very nice. Making them happy made me happy. I emotionally mirrored their response, and it amplified my own. happy people=happy me. I actually feel others happiness much more strongly than my own. Making other people feel joy is like getting a hit of speed for me-it is energizing and fills me with happiness and pleasure-I did something of value.

    (On the converse making other people sad-oh so horrible nightmarish)

    (Ne-Monster still processing)

    But sometimes-I see this in my coworker more than me-I see her NeFi pulling her very strongly to please others. I think the reverse mirror works as well. If they are unhappy-we feel unhappy and somewhat angstful. So we seek to "please" them to make them happy again.

    This becomes a problem at work as we are given the choice of doing what is best for the group (one Fi value) -ie bringing a severe problem to light and pushing for resolution, vs not bringing the problem to light, but letting everyone remain happy (a second Fi value).

    If we let them stay happy-we feel dark inside-like satine said-we just violated our own value??? I dunno, this may make no sense at all.

  7. #77
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This becomes a problem at work as we are given the choice of doing what is best for the group (one Fi value) -ie bringing a severe problem to light and pushing for resolution, vs not bringing the problem to light, but letting everyone remain happy (a second Fi value).

    If we let them stay happy-we feel dark inside-like satine said-we just violated our own value??? I dunno, this may make no sense at all.
    This is where the real Fi work begins, as I mentioned before.

    The Fi values conflict. Otherwise known as a moral dilemma.

    It isn't easy to resolve. The resolution rests upon altering one or both values such that they work together, or possibly dropping a value (which is extreme, but sometimes absolutely necessary).

    This next bit will partly resolve gromit's question ...

    Recall the "sun in your hands" image that I used to describe Fi so long ago? I take that and start from there: I want there to be no darkness, neither in myself nor others. Then I apply something of an "action principle": this is a high-end physics math device, where you have an equation that describes how everything "works" based on core principles of physics, and give it some boundary conditions. When the action is minimized, that gives the set of equations that determine how everything works. In quantum electrodynamics (QED), this is used, for example, to determine the observed path of a photon. When more than one path is possible, all possible paths are taken. Yes, by the same photon, which, yes, can "interfere with itself". Usually, though, the action principle and the wave nature of the photon makes all but the "single straight line" the path to take.

    So, I figure out the start and end points, and then I work backwards and forwards from those to figure out how to get from one to the other in a way that is in accord with my core principle(s). It's possible that there is no way, but usually, it's just the straight line path, and still fairly often, there are multiple ways that maximize the amount of goodness (difficult to observe/determine, but still a useful criterion) for everyone involved.

    In the particular dilemma mentioned, I would figure out how to get the problem out in the open for everyone to solve it, AND figure out how to get everyone motivated to solve it in a positive way, rather than dwell on how awful it is that a problem exists. I would find the path that resolves both Fi values in the long term, and I wouldn't let short term "minor violations" themselves cause a long term major violation.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    <-- has been described as a "people pleaser"

    the hardest thing for those of us who are Ti people with TRYING to develop Fi is that the two functions actually work in a somewhat similar manner- how are you supposed to develop one when the function that, in a way, takes it's place is quite strong?

    You can't turn off Ti to focus on another interior analytical function really... it is, unfortunatly, not like a light switch.

    It's like asking a right handed batter to switch to using his/her left hand in a way- switching away from what we're good at, understand and are strong at to something odd and weird that might mess things up in a way
    Use Ti to logically run down paths that "are not wrong". In certain instances you will run across Fi. The hardest part is that you must be able to keep yourself in the dark, to be able to hide certain things. This opens up the possibilities for Ti to explore in an Fi manner. You have to know your logic and know what causes what and be able to hide, to convince yourself. Basically take control of the logical path. You know how some people will turn the TV off when previews come on or refuse to hear how a game turns out. You must take that approach with logic. Its really hard to do for a Ti dom as I have to play heavily with Se and Ni and find things that are "not wrong". This is scary because of the paths it leads down and the possible truths that get revealed. What you need to reach this is security and comfort. Basically the security and comfort that puts Se and Ni back in place from the path it went down. A truth that Se can sense that removes all doubt that you reach going down those other paths.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #79
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Use Ti to logically run down paths that "are not wrong". In certain instances you will run across Fi. The hardest part is that you must be able to keep yourself in the dark, to be able to hide certain things. This opens up the possibilities for Ti to explore in an Fi manner. You have to know your logic and know what causes what and be able to hide, to convince yourself. Basically take control of the logical path. You know how some people will turn the TV off when previews come on or refuse to hear how a game turns out. You must take that approach with logic. Its really hard to do for a Ti dom as I have to play heavily with Se and Ni and find things that are "not wrong". This is scary because of the paths it leads down and the possible truths that get revealed. What you need to reach this is security and comfort. Basically the security and comfort that puts Se and Ni back in place from the path it went down. A truth that Se can sense that removes all doubt that you reach going down those other paths.
    So you establish a boundary condition on the "problem" at hand-that you must not cross an Fi path? Thus all logical solutions are valid, all Ti paths can be followed-except those which cross an Fi path? And you use Se and Ni to try and feel out where those Fi paths are? And you use security and comfort as guides to where the Fi path is? (have an Fe-ish Fi hug, cause Ijust made all that stuff up I dunno... but your SeNi is like a puzzle!)

  10. #80
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Use Ti to logically run down paths that "are not wrong". In certain instances you will run across Fi. The hardest part is that you must be able to keep yourself in the dark, to be able to hide certain things. This opens up the possibilities for Ti to explore in an Fi manner. You have to know your logic and know what causes what and be able to hide, to convince yourself. Basically take control of the logical path. You know how some people will turn the TV off when previews come on or refuse to hear how a game turns out. You must take that approach with logic. Its really hard to do for a Ti dom as I have to play heavily with Se and Ni and find things that are "not wrong". This is scary because of the paths it leads down and the possible truths that get revealed. What you need to reach this is security and comfort. Basically the security and comfort that puts Se and Ni back in place from the path it went down. A truth that Se can sense that removes all doubt that you reach going down those other paths.
    My Ni isn't so hot either I suppose there's no external functions that would be helpful there either? I have a good grasp on almost all of them! (well, Se, Ne and Fe anyways)

    but the basic message here is, when internally exploring and running into something that feels uncomfortably prickly to keep on pushing that way and examine that? I suppose treat my inner self the same way that I treat the park nearby- explore every path, even if it involves a lot of stairs and loose gravel might be an approach...

    *feels inept- and is woman enough to admit it*
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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