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  1. #51
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    (So... I talk about Fi "wanting" things here... clearly it's not separate entity, and it would be more accurate to say that "Fi tends towards a perspective that tends to value..." but life is too short and I'm verbose enough as it is.)

    Your description is interesting since I experience my own Fi as, to a large degree, assigning good/bad, congruent/incongruent, please/displeasing values to things. It is extremely exacting in its own idealistic way, although its metrics are entirely different than Te's.

    I think that Fi, like Ti, wants to stay true to the essence of things. It seeks to fine tune understanding and bring parts of the self into harmony. It definitely emphasis the importance of harmony of values and feeling in a way that Te does not.

    So, in one sense I can totally see the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes in one side of Fi. It definitely leaves a lot of room for self-determination and individual agency in a way that Te doesn't always. Fi wants to harmonize the outside world to itself when it can. In additional, there is a sort of emotional vulnerability that is characteristic of Fi... you let the outside world in in order to understand it and yourself.

    But, conversely, it can be extremely judgmental when it feels its turf is intruded upon. It's extremely territorial about a small territory (at least for an INFP), but fairly accepting about anything beyond that territory. So, while there is acceptance in aspects of Fi, Judging that which clashes with one's values is Fi, too.

    That's not to say I know what the experience of tertiary (or inferior) Fi is or isn't.
    Yes, Fi is very judgmental. It is a judging function, after all. However, if you try to understand Fi matters with a pre-assigned set of values, you will get confused. You have to drop the assumptions and look at it raw. What is happening is that you are building your own framework based on your own observations. It then develops into its own set of values that does not necessarily align with values you learned before.

    I should also note that the Tao is a very particular and peculiar approach, that I think produces a "less judgmental" set of Fi-values than most other approaches. Personally, I don't find the complete divestment from oneself of good/evil values to be useful: some things need to be cataloged as being "intrinsically very bad ideas". However, a lot of standards of good/bad are entirely arbitrary, and it's helpful to drop them and figure out where you stand on your own.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #52
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    The devil's in the details
    So, in a way, yes

    You're right, Fe does go over things in broader strokes, to have a workable model that doesn't take that long to figure out. A general practical way of how the world works, though still plenty detailed in Fe-doms. Fe also seems to work more with the 'this is right' and 'this is wrong' thing than Fi does (exceptions do exists, such as the corevalues, see below). Sure, there is a grayscale, but to be efficient socially, Fe is way more willing to judge, in order to get things moving and get to the part where you can fix it and smoothing things out.

    Fi on the other hand is all about nuances. The grayscale gets dragged out even more. Every piece is a precise and vital piece of the puzzle. Right and wrong is therefore very much dependent on the context, and ultimately often irrelevant. It's about understanding the situation, and the proper context to perceive it in, in order to gain a deeper knowledge, a blueprints as to how something works. It's like a work of art really. Certainly not practical, forever slow and nitpicky, but oh so beautiful when done just right

    The exception I am talking about, is often more clearly viewed in younger enfps. Certain pristine, pure values are upheld, and those will be defended vehemently. They're like axioms in math. Truths to be upheld. With age and experience, you can still redefine them, add a grayscale, but it takes a lot of insight and wisdom to do so without corrupting them. Fi either finds right and wrong irrelevant or..in the other extreme, Fi dictates there is no other way to do it. When that rears its head..you've hit upon one of those sacred values. Back away slowely and nobody will get hurt
    And you hit on the most terrifying thing about Fi people there- their tendancy to suddenly lash out like an angry snake when you accidentally tread on their core values... it can be startling and confusing to the rest of us (especially for a clumsy footed ExTP ) It's like seeing a nice smooth pane of glass shatter into pointy shards right in front of you- going from calm to prickly

    So it's like the difference between a Renoir and a Gaugin in a way... one detailed and meticulous though in less dramatic shades, while the other is loosely done in broad, brightly colored strokes.

    Fe is the moral judge, jury and exocutioner while Fi is the moral legal scholar, focusing on the details of the emotion and argument as opposed to quickly making an emotional decision and executing it... it seems like an almost foreign concept to me in a way unless I relate it to Ti, which uumlau suggested before (not in the thread)- wanting to understand the details, building blocks and underpinnings of a concept or an idea instead of executing sudden logic based decisions

    *wonders if she's still clueless*
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #53
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Sounds pretty spot on

    Tip: The snake usually warns by using its rattle first (unless you were unfortunate enough to be the 50th person that day to step on their tail). Back away when you hear the rattles and put a leash on your curiosity. Ask questions from outside the personal space circle and proceed really really slowly

    And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms
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  4. #54
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    And you hit on the most terrifying thing about Fi people there- their tendancy to suddenly lash out like an angry snake when you accidentally tread on their core values... it can be startling and confusing to the rest of us (especially for a clumsy footed ExTP ) It's like seeing a nice smooth pane of glass shatter into pointy shards right in front of you- going from calm to prickly

    So it's like the difference between a Renoir and a Gaugin in a way... one detailed and meticulous though in less dramatic shades, while the other is loosely done in broad, brightly colored strokes.

    Fe is the moral judge, jury and exocutioner while Fi is the moral legal scholar, focusing on the details of the emotion and argument as opposed to quickly making an emotional decision and executing it... it seems like an almost foreign concept to me in a way unless I relate it to Ti, which uumlau suggested before (not in the thread)- wanting to understand the details, building blocks and underpinnings of a concept or an idea instead of executing sudden logic based decisions

    *wonders if she's still clueless*
    No, not clueless.

    With respect to "Fi lashing out", that is another Fi lesson: how to deal with other people crossing one's own core values. It is possible, in most cases, to gently rebuke people who violate one's Fi axioms/principles.

    Recall that not all Fi principles are necessarily goodness and light (hence my evil unicorn avatar). One might erroneously (or perhaps by very conscious choice, though that's a different matter) a very evil/dark/wrong value, that causes one to lash out for poor reasons. Any axioms that seem to be causing one to do bad things in real life need to be reevaluated, and perhaps relearned or discarded. This is the same process that is involved in developing one's Fi in the first place. The learning never ends.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #55
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms
    What if one is insisting that the world is flat?

    Cannot some Fi axioms can be wrong or need fine tuning?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #56
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What if one is insisting that the world is flat?

    Cannot some Fi axioms can be wrong or need fine tuning?
    Oh most definitely, but that's something that's very hard to change unless the Fi-user is open to that debate and you ahve someone who is very *very* diplomatic trying to explain it to them. Most discover it over time, I think.

    Ime, it's usually emotional baggage/trauma that causes a certain value to surface. Often, the value has merit, but has been completely twarthed and taken to the extreme as a reaction to the pain that was experienced. Like an allergy almost..or a malfunctioning gun that goes off at the slightest touch. It takes time to build up resistence against that allergy and disable the sensitive trigger on the gun.

    I was merely trying to give Whatever a way to deal with coming across those rattlers, hence i didn't elaborate


    Edit: after some pondering, I wanted to add that...my Fi for instance for a long time had( and sometimes still does) issues with regulating intensity. Because Fi-users tend to experience things so intensely and they aren't always aware others do not, it can create an overdramatic effect on others, and the negative backlash of that can increase the hypersensitivity even more (how can they not understand me!??), causing a negative loop. This in turn can lead to (intense) disillusionment, loss of faith in the world, and bring out the more dark gloomy 'faux' Fi values like 'I hate people', 'People need to die', 'There's no point to living this life', etc. I call them 'faux' because I believe most Fi-users to adhere to them out of protection of their vulnerable core, to keep them from hurting again, instead of those values representing who they truly are.

    It took me quite a while to learn how to 'tone' it down without being inauthentic (and it still costs me a lot of effort to this day) in order to make it palatable to others.
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  7. #57
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Sounds pretty spot on

    Tip: The snake usually warns by using its rattle first (unless you were unfortunate enough to be the 50th person that day to step on their tail). Back away when you hear the rattles and put a leash on your curiosity. Ask questions from outside the personal space circle and proceed really really slowly

    And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms
    I think that a lot of that comes from the Ti-Fe v Te-Fi manners of discussing things as to why an ExTP might not pick up on the signals in some cases... we'll just be joking about something and assume that the Fi person is joking as well, completely missing out on the rattle

    though I remember becoming quite annoyed when my aunt insisted that obviously north was up because pictures from space showed it that way even though I logically explained that she was wrong :steam: NOT... RIGHT... :steam:

    I refused to speak to her for a week

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, not clueless.

    With respect to "Fi lashing out", that is another Fi lesson: how to deal with other people crossing one's own core values. It is possible, in most cases, to gently rebuke people who violate one's Fi axioms/principles.

    Recall that not all Fi principles are necessarily goodness and light (hence my evil unicorn avatar). One might erroneously (or perhaps by very conscious choice, though that's a different matter) a very evil/dark/wrong value, that causes one to lash out for poor reasons. Any axioms that seem to be causing one to do bad things in real life need to be reevaluated, and perhaps relearned or discarded. This is the same process that is involved in developing one's Fi in the first place. The learning never ends.
    so people who "wrongly" cross a Fi's core values are like an "obtuse idiot" is to a Ti person
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #58
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post

    Edit: after some pondering, I wanted to add that...my Fi for instance for a long time had( and sometimes still does) issues with regulating intensity. Because Fi-users tend to experience things so intensely and they aren't always aware others do not, it can create an overdramatic effect on others, and the negative backlash of that can increase the hypersensitivity even more (how can they not understand me!??), causing a negative loop. This in turn can lead to (intense) disillusionment, loss of faith in the world, and bring out the more dark gloomy 'faux' Fi values like 'I hate people', 'People need to die', 'There's no point to living this life', etc. I call them 'faux' because I believe most Fi-users to adhere to them out of protection of their vulnerable core, to keep them from hurting again, instead of those values representing who they truly are.
    Very helpful thoughts, which inspire a slightly different idea ...

    Perhaps the whole "unicorns and bunnies and kittehs and hearts and flowers" stereotype of Fi users is a similar "faux Fi value?" That the difficult part is actually coming up with real Fi values?


    It took me quite a while to learn how to 'tone' it down without being inauthentic (and it still costs me a lot of effort to this day) in order to make it palatable to others.
    I think it's still rather strong for INTJs, as well. The difference is that rather than using faux values or toning it down, we just shut it off (more or less, with predictably bad results). All different defenses for the same Fi issues.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #59
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps the whole "unicorns and bunnies and kittehs and hearts and flowers" stereotype of Fi users is a similar "faux Fi value?" That the difficult part is actually coming up with real Fi values?
    Nary a unicorn did I long for (well not counting when I was five and wanted to actually be a unicorn)-until I came to type C. Then it was fun to stumble into the stereotype. But my user name then-Happy puppy, ah, well that was from day one. When not an incinerating bitch or hyperanalytical ENTP groupie, I am like a little kid, galloping through life. A happy puppy with big, stupid, hopeful eyes, just wanting to play, love and be loved, full of silly.

    Analytically:
    Does the unicorn stereotype ring true for infps or just enfps? Seems more like enfps-but please correct if I have remembered incorrectly.

    Perhaps the stereotype of the unicorn is closer to the Jungian child archetype? The unicorns/bunnies/rainbows are all symbolic of innocence, a niave understanding of the world, an acceptance of everything in it with open love and utter acceptance. A lack of understanding of malice almost.

    A real question:
    What are Fi values? Can you list some concrete examples of Fi values?

  10. #60
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Perhaps the stereotype of the unicorn is closer to the Jungian child archetype? The unicorns/bunnies/rainbows are all symbolic of innocence, a niave understanding of the world, an acceptance of everything in it with open love and utter acceptance. A lack of understanding of malice almost.
    I don't really see a unicorn as symbolic for innocence. Perhaps I'm more used to it from an AD&D point of view

    "Unicorns exist to protect forests from intelligent creatures. They dwell deep within their forests, and shun most creatures, only conferring with feys such as pixies, dryads, and sprites. They will show themselves to save their forests, however. Unicorns are strongly magical creatures, with most of their abilities coming from their horn. They can live up to 1000 years, and show effects of aging only weeks before death. They are able to sense evil nearby, and radiate an aura which protects them from most evil spells. The touch of their horn can both heal wounds and cure poison. Also, once a day, a unicorn can teleport to anywhere in its forest home (although they cannot teleport in from outside the forest). Unicorns attack by impaling foes on their horns, or with their hooves."

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    A real question:
    What are Fi values? Can you list some concrete examples of Fi values?
    I don't think you can differentiate Fi values from non-Fi values. It's more a matter of how an Fi-user would weigh the values differently. When making an important decision, my personal value would usually take precedence; even if it clashes with the community standards.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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