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  1. #21
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Nope. However, it might be a useful thing to learn for Fi dom/aux, just as Fi is a useful thing to learn for Te dom/aux.
    Naturally the corollary rings true. However, Te can be a big wooden club. Fi is a toothpick. If I were to recount all the times Te beat up my Fi ... it's a huge reason why I self-nurture rather than looking for or expecting any validation. I regard my Te skills as well-developed and I am surrounded by Te users. So I know the power of the function. I use it on myself all the time. And there are no end of Te doms and aux's who think they have claim to objectivity and will tell you each decision you make must be a RATIONAL one. (Note Te users get to define "rational" as well thus are never wrong nor are their decisions wrong.)

    Realize in conflict, the parent will always win (at least short-term) against the child. That is why ... Fi cannot be regarded as a child. It rails against such control. Nor is it helpful to me to think of the function as a child; the metaphor contradicts a maturity that Fi can offer. I can accept that good parenting of emotions is a useful too. But I cannot relegate feelings to the inferior status; thinking isn't wiser or more mature by definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    And it's a far different thing to listen to the "child" even when she barely whispers.
    I understand she whispers to you ... but she's got a much louder voice in my world. I have to "tune into" Si and Te; you have to "tune into" Fi and Se. If you were to use radio stations as a metaphor, I encounter more static trying to listen to Te; you encounter static trying to hear Fi.

    So, different tools for different jobs. Isn't it a bit presumptuous that as an Fi tert, you will claim to offer the right tools for an Fi dom? I am handy with the Te (there was a very good reason why I was debating team captain) but I don't think I use my Te as gracefully or sharply as a Te dom. Te doms are like a bowsaw and I am a hacksaw doing the same job. True I can get the job done credibly enough. But I don't assume any superiority simply because I can.

    LOL, I am heavy on metaphors and symbolism here. Hope you either enjoy them or at least can tolerate the mental imagery.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I would tell you that you are significant for far more essential reasons than those you cite. Hopefully you understand what I mean, because words fail me, here.
    I hear you.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    However, I believe that one in the early stages of developing Fi should treat one's feelings that way {as a child}. It should be in a loving way, that encourages growth, not just gratuitously satisfying feelings in order to get it to just "shut up."
    See how you think you are right? By virtue of your experience with Fi? How would we turn a corollary here? My Si needs to be babied? I should be loving to it and subjugate it to the parenting of Fi or Ne? What would that parenting look like? Help me flip it over, draw some comparisons for other types and I might place more credence in your insistence on the child analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Please do call me out on it if I should seem to offer any disrespect. You input in this thread is much appreciated.
    If this becomes an Fi arm-wrestle, I will work hard to ensure you will go down.

    However, I enjoy your energy and desire to communicate and I think you will offer a lot of helpful suggestions to the readers. I'll insert myself from time to time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #22
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    What makes Fi superior to Fo or Fum?
    I'll give you the answer you want: Fe!

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's an EVIL unicorn avatar.
    Yes, I like it - vaguely familiar it is.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #23
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Realize in conflict, the parent will always win (at least short-term) against the child. That is why ... Fi cannot be regarded as a child. It rails against such control. Nor is it helpful to me to think of the function as a child; the metaphor contradicts a maturity that Fi can offer. I can accept that good parenting of emotions is a useful too. But I cannot relegate feelings to the inferior status; thinking isn't wiser or more mature by definition.

    I understand she whispers to you ... but she's got a much louder voice in my world. I have to "tune into" Si and Te; you have to "tune into" Fi and Se. If you were to use radio stations as a metaphor, I encounter more static trying to listen to Te; you encounter static trying to hear Fi.
    @Bold: it sounds like you're looking for a conflict, or you see something in my words where it feels like disagreement. Yet when you explain your ideas, I'm not disagreeing with what I read.

    Re: "thinking isn't wiser". Neither is feeling "wiser." Wisdom, true wisdom, comes from the sum of our experience.

    w/r to "whispers to you": you misunderstand my analogy. Fi used to have to shout to be heard by me. Now it doesn't. I listen. I don't have to "tune it in", I stopped tuning it out. It's fairly clear, now.

    So, different tools for different jobs. Isn't it a bit presumptuous that as an Fi tert, you will claim to offer the right tools for an Fi dom? I am handy with the Te (there was a very good reason why I was debating team captain) but I don't think I use my Te as gracefully or sharply as a Te dom. Te doms are like a bowsaw and I am a hacksaw doing the same job. True I can get the job done credibly enough. But I don't assume any superiority simply because I can.
    @Bold: it still sounds like you're looking for a fight.

    I'm not speaking as an Ni dom nor as an Fi tert nor any MBTI construct. I am speaking as something known as a "human being." I use MBTI to convey ideas. I do not use it to prove dominance or superiority or what have you. As a "human being", I would tell other human beings to use both their rational (T) side and their feeling (F) side, regardless of type.


    See how you think you are right?
    And you never think you're right?

    By virtue of your experience with Fi? How would we turn a corollary here? My Si needs to be babied? I should be loving to it and subjugate it to the parenting of Fi or Ne? What would that parenting look like? Help me flip it over, draw some comparisons for other types and I might place more credence in your insistence on the child analogy.
    You're past the child analogy. You don't need it. That's why it doesn't ring true for you. The analogy wouldn't hold for any other function. It's just an analogy based on my own experience with myself and with others with whom I've shared these ideas.

    As one INFP put it to me, "I am my inner child." By which she didn't mean she is a child, but that she was her Fi, all grown up.

    Those with tert/inf Fi often benefit from that child analogy. It rings true for them, it points them in the right direction. Then I tell them that the child needs to grow up. For any particular individual, should the child analogy "not work," I will find a better one.

    If this becomes an Fi arm-wrestle, I will work hard to ensure you will go down.
    Heehee.

    However, I enjoy your energy and desire to communicate and I think you will offer a lot of helpful suggestions to the readers. I'll insert myself from time to time.
    I think it helps everyone to see what a wise and mature example of Fi dom looks like. It's something that I can only point to in others, not by my own example.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #24
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's all good. There's a lot of Fi in there, but there is even more Ni.

    The whole idea is to let it "echo around." It's rather introverted, and not easily given to verbalization. The Fi part is, in particular, letting go of the "good/bad" connotations of things, and understanding what they are. This is very similar to the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes of which I spoke. Different paths to the same thing.
    (So... I talk about Fi "wanting" things here... clearly it's not separate entity, and it would be more accurate to say that "Fi tends towards a perspective that tends to value..." but life is too short and I'm verbose enough as it is.)

    Your description is interesting since I experience my own Fi as, to a large degree, assigning good/bad, congruent/incongruent, please/displeasing values to things. It is extremely exacting in its own idealistic way, although its metrics are entirely different than Te's.

    I think that Fi, like Ti, wants to stay true to the essence of things. It seeks to fine tune understanding and bring parts of the self into harmony. It definitely emphasis the importance of harmony of values and feeling in a way that Te does not.

    So, in one sense I can totally see the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes in one side of Fi. It definitely leaves a lot of room for self-determination and individual agency in a way that Te doesn't always. Fi wants to harmonize the outside world to itself when it can. In additional, there is a sort of emotional vulnerability that is characteristic of Fi... you let the outside world in in order to understand it and yourself.

    But, conversely, it can be extremely judgmental when it feels its turf is intruded upon. It's extremely territorial about a small territory (at least for an INFP), but fairly accepting about anything beyond that territory. So, while there is acceptance in aspects of Fi, Judging that which clashes with one's values is Fi, too.

    That's not to say I know what the experience of tertiary (or inferior) Fi is or isn't.

  5. #25
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You are right; I am on my horse, holding back the reins; she's ready to charge, but I am holding her back.

    I know you mean well. And I am testing you too.

    Trust me, if I made a thread entitled "Peacebaby answers your questions about Te" I would be swarmed by NT's with big wooden clubs ... how dare I presume to have any special insight about logic or thinking ...

    ---

    w/r to "whispers to you": you misunderstand my analogy. Fi used to have to shout to be heard by me. Now it doesn't. I listen. I don't have to "tune it in", I stopped tuning it out. It's fairly clear, now.
    OK, I understand.

    I'm not speaking as an Ni dom nor as an Fi tert nor any MBTI construct. I am speaking as something known as a "human being." I use MBTI to convey ideas.
    You are using the language of MBTI when you reference Fi however, which specifically conveys a narrower context than a human being developing a balanced life.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #26
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    PeaceBaby, you seem strangely threatened by uumlau's attempt to reconcile Fi with the curious. Who cares if it's not his primary/aux function? You're ascribing to an age-old MBTI stereotype if you presume that his comprehension is somehow inferior on that particular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You are right; I am on my horse, holding back the reins; she's ready to charge, but I am holding her back.

    I know you mean well. And I am testing you too.
    Seems like you're going beyond simply "busting his chops".

    I'm confused by your behavior.

  7. #27
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Trust me, if I made a thread entitled "Peacebaby answers your questions about Te" I would be swarmed by NT's with big wooden clubs ... how dare I presume to have any special insight about logic or thinking ...
    Heh... suddenly that becomes so tempting...

    I could see a title of "Uumlau Answers Your Questions about Tertiary Fi" or something pushing fewer buttons. I also suspect some built up sensitivity because Fi so often gets defined negatively (not that it is always positive)—that past history is hardly Uumlau's fault, though.

    Conversely, I can't help but comment on things that don't ring true to me or that seem incomplete. Maybe tertiary Fi is more different in character than one would think... but maybe discussing what doesn't ring true back and forth will help clarify that.

  8. #28
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Night:

    You are ascribing the interpretation of an inferior experience; I contend it is merely different, but I don't feel threatened in the least. Just because I use a passionate metaphor does not mean I am out to "bust his chops".

    Think of me being colorful, like an ENTP.

    Are you saying I cannot challenge something that does not align with my experience?

    (rep I sent to you too night: Think of it in terms of a logical proof; I don't have to accept it or remain neutral, and I can test my own theories in the process.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #29
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    *subscribed* *prints thread to this point*

  10. #30
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ...not forcing any external labels or biases on your inner self (which is what Fe will try to do for you)...
    It's nice of you to offer more explanations of Fi--maybe we should have a thread explaining Fe to Fi-ers as well, because it seems you guys are just as confused about Fe as we are about Fi.

    Anyway, you say this as if Fe is somehow impure or tainted, or somehow not "real" because it comes from the outside. There's no "forcing" of anything; Fe users feel genuinely connected to and validated by sharing and relating to others via community-based feelings and ethics with people in the groups they feel part of. We're not all just lying to ourselves because we're in denial about Fi--we just derive ethics differently.

    "What Fe will try to do for you"? This sounds like you think Fe is some sort of insidious plot to attack and destroy your true sense of self, but that's really not how it is for Fe users. Fi-ers often seem to think Fe is totally insincere and exists purely for strategic gain, but that's really not the case. (I suspect that many Fi-ers see it that way because that is the only way they know how to "use" Fe, as they rarely experience it genuinely.)

    Listening to collective ethics feels genuinely right to Fe-ers in the same way listening to private ethics and blocking out external influence in that area feels genuinely right to Fi-ers. Fe-ers do not deliberately ignore their consciences for strategic gain; Fe (along with Ti) is their conscience. The expressions of Feeling displayed by Fe are what the Fe user truly feels are the right thing to do--they just put more stock in how other people feel about it than do Fi-ers.

    I like to think of it as helping maintain a healthy sense of objectivity about ethics. If you ignore everyone else's ideas on ethics, how will you know when you've made an ethical error?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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