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  1. #11
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    whats Fi like in intp?
    I'm not sure how you regard it, but my initial post was for an ESTP (whatever), who technically doesn't have Fi except as a shadow in MBTI terms, but was curious how to develop it.

    I provided a guide (that particular post tailored to Whatever), on "how to arrive at processing in an Fi way" and "how to know that you're actually working with Fi and not something else." As an INTP, it should mostly apply to you, but it might be missing a key element that would make it "click" for you.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Fi isn't about "being emo," but rather its how to deal with being emo. People who are "emo" tend to really need to develop Fi, and do so. Also, a lot of the development for an emo person can tend to happen out where everyone can see it, exposing one's personal immaturity and creating an unfavorable impression.

    Should you start to work on Fi, that wouldn't make you "emo." Mostly it would be an exercise in dropping Ti for just a bit, and letting yourself go deep inside and check on your own feelings on your own terms.

    Feel free to ask more specific questions, but as for your general open-ended question, I think my initial post in the thread plus my comments here should suffice.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #12
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    What makes Fi superior to Fo or Fum?
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  3. #13
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I respect you uumlau for your gesture to explain Fi, as you understand and experience it. And I enjoy your contributions here on the forum, so I offer the following with love, so I hope you receive it in the spirit of my intent.
    Of course, PB. I always welcome your input.
    The issue for me is that Fi is always going to be a child function for you; indeed, in your experience Fi will much more naturally subjugate to Te. You regard Fi as a parent does a child - you even use the word above, and I believe you have referenced it as such before. So this Te "parental discipline" that you subject to Fi, which to you likely comes readily, is not natural to many Fi users.
    Nope. However, it might be a useful thing to learn for Fi dom/aux, just as Fi is a useful thing to learn for Te dom/aux.

    You let Fi "out to play" so to speak, and neatly tuck it away when you are tired of having it underfoot.
    That's how it used to be.

    It's a far different thing to have the "child" screaming at you non-stop and you cannot soothe it nor can you simply abandon it or shut it up with candy or promises or logic.
    Agreed.

    And it's a far different thing to listen to the "child" even when she barely whispers.
    Is the courage to face one's demons an act of being stubborn? It's a far greater truth to stand sobbing amidst the internal emotional wreckage that defines you at some point and simply accept who you are. This is not being stubborn; this is the antithesis of stubborn. This is yielding, accepting. One must realize too that even in acceptance one simply cannot stay in that place and relive pain over and over again. The greater wisdom is to yield - to be borne anew and see the world again through the eyes that accept whatever comes. To move forward knowing, trusting that you will be OK.


    The "stubborn" of which I spoke is one of many "training wheels" lessons. The point is to stay there and take it. After doing that, it gradually becomes possible to accept (note my points about "It's OK" and "self-forgiveness").

    I am not "far more significant than all that random emotional crap inside of you" - I am significant even with it, I AM emotions, I AM values, I FEEL, and you know what - that's OK. Most of my life has been spent trying to conform to other people's expectations and experience, people who tell me not to care so much, not to feel so much, not to be emotional (like it's a dirty word) ... most of my issues have been created trying to make myself fit into a world that does not share my priorities rather than having emotions in the first place.

    I don't have the same priorities as you, but yes. I can mostly agree with this.

    One slight way in which I disagree (and maybe you mean this, too, but I'm not seeing it), is that there is a "me" that goes far beyond any labels. Whatever this "me" is that makes decisions. Emotions are a part of me. Thoughts are a part of me. But even then, they're just glimpses: there's more to me than that. The emotions are, of course, an essential part of me, and I do a disservice to ignore them. Similarly, my objective thinking is an essential part of me, as well, and I do a disservice to ignore that. It's all me, but no individual piece "is me" when taken alone.


    I am significant because I have values and because I feel. That is the entire difference in our experience.
    Yes, that is a difference in our experience.

    I would tell you that you are significant for far more essential reasons than those you cite. Hopefully you understand what I mean, because words fail me, here.

    I don't mean to be harsh or minimize your experience of Fi in the least.
    You didn't.

    I simply want you to see that in order to harness the true power of Fi, you must not treat it as a child.
    Well said.

    In one of my earlier encounters with Fi, anthropomorphizing it a bit, I was told in no uncertain terms, "I am nobody's f-cking inner child."

    However, I believe that one in the early stages of developing Fi should treat one's feelings that way. It should be in a loving way, that encourages growth, not just gratuitously satisfying feelings in order to get it to just "shut up." The key is to be gentle, not harsh, at first, because the pain is such that one will simply avoid the experience and learn nothing, if there is too much pain. Later on, the harsher lessons are easier to learn.

    Let's just say that my Fi had to "learn for itself" that it was no longer a child.

    Nor answer questions about Fi as a parent would a child. That could be patronizing and Fi deserves a deeper respect, to have a seat at the "grown-ups" table.
    Agreed.

    Please do call me out on it if I should seem to offer any disrespect. You input in this thread is much appreciated.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #14
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    *subscribed* I really wanna learn how to control, understand and/or use Fi. I'm at the point in my life where I either wanna kill it or seriously improve it.

  5. #15
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    uumlau, in your personal journey, did you begin to explore Fi only once you had terminology for it (once you were aware of the theory "Fi" and other cognitive functions) or do you describe the process now in terms of Fi and Ni/Te, but when you commenced your exploration you had other language to describe it to yourself?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #16
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    uumlau, in your personal journey, did you begin to explore Fi only once you had terminology for it (once you were aware of the theory "Fi" and other cognitive functions) or do you describe the process now in terms of Fi and Ni/Te, but when you commenced your exploration you had other language to describe it to yourself?
    I didn't have terminology for it for a long time.

    My first initial experience was with a dream, that turned into a lucid dream.

    I was maybe 8 or 9 years old, and running from a monster. It was a less fearsome monster than most (I've had dreams with a T-Rex peeking in through a 2nd or 3rd story window: :horor But it was by no means not scary.

    Then at some point something came over me. I stopped. I turned around to face it. It stopped in confusion. I chuckled.

    Then I just felt some kind of warm energy in me. I pointed at the monster and zapped it with a white beam of energy. It disintegrated.

    Then it reformed, in the manner that dream-monsters never quite die.

    I zapped it again.

    Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap->Reform->Zap-> ... you get the idea.

    Then the next time it started to reform, I just kind of raised an eyebrow at it. It didn't reform that time.

    I have not had a frightening nightmare ever since. Embarrassing, yes; frightening, no.

    There is a post in another thread in which I described Fi has holding this bright light (like the sun) in your hands and putting it inside where it warms your heart. This dream is the primordial source of that image for me.

    My next step on the Fi trip was Erich Fromm's "The Art of Loving", which I'd read in a "great books" class as a senior in high school. The central message of that is that love is an act of will, not merely a feeling. This has become one of my core "Fi axioms". Feeling alone is not enough. Neither is choice alone enough. Fi is the "feeling-choice." (My statements here go far beyond what Fromm was advocating. He reads more like an INTP, or maybe J but I doubt it, where "logically" love has to be an act of will, because feeling alone is fickle and cannot really love.)

    Then about 15 years later, I'm going through some of the toughest times in my life, that made me into who I am now. All of the choices I made in that period were long before I knew MBTI and used these terms to describe it.

    Two books in particular helped me through that period, both by Stephen Mitchell: The Tao Te Ching, and The Gospel According to Jesus.

    That Tao translation is the source of my "lake" metaphor for Fi:

    Do you have the patience to wait
    till your mud settles and the water is clear?
    Can you remain unmoving
    till the right action arises by itself?

    Sharing the lake metaphor with a friend on another forum resulted in her contribution of rivers or streams representing Fe.

    His "Gospel" book is rather heretical, leaving out the "mythological" parts, but it does a very good job at highlighting the spiritual knowledge that Jesus was trying to convey.

    Only after all of that, and only after taking up dancing and becoming more social, was I (re)introduced to MBTI. (My first introduction typed me as ISTJ, which was sort of true, but not really, so I had dismissed MBTI as bogus.) After about 3 months of discussing MBTI and learning about it, I started making connections with respect to what Ni and Fi meant, and linked it back to earlier lessons, and I saw how Fi described the way I approached emotions.

    When I talk about Fi, here, Fi is the sum of all of that kind of knowledge that I've learned. In no way do I regard my knowledge in that regard as complete. After having so many people ask about Fi, however, I realized that while I could give no definitive lessons, I could "point the way," and help them discover it for themselves, on their own terms.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #17
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    INTJ with unicorn avatar that talks about Fi ?


    I am afraid to admit it but NFPs seem too be winning at the moment

  8. #18
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    INTJ with unicorn avatar that talks about Fi ?


    I am afraid to admit it but NFPs seem too be winning at the moment
    It's an EVIL unicorn avatar.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #19
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Thank you.

    Follow-up question: do you use Fi as the primary language to describe it? Is it the term you have found that best "fits" the concept, or do you use it here because it's something that people can understand, because it's the language spoken on the forum?

    p.s. I clicked the The Tao Te Ching link AHHHH!!! Just reading the first chapter I sort of went crazy... in a good way... like I cannot wait to read more and more and think about it in relation to everything else. And then as I am asking you all of these questions it somehow it clicks a little bit in my mind.

    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.

    So, I guess that is why I ask the questions... on some levels I am a little bit skeptical of limiting something to one name... but then giving a label of some kind is how we can communicate with other people and sort through things ourselves. It is like a tension between describing it enough to make SOME sense of it and not describing it so much that it becomes the description in our minds and we cannot perceive more of it revealed to us.

    And then I can feel that sentence I just wrote echoing, echoing, echoing against all of these different ideas I've heard from all these other places...

    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.

    I just want it to sit there and echo around a little bit or something.



    Sorry sorry sorry... this is not the thread topic at all. I am just so excited. I couldn't contain myself.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #20
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Thank you.

    Follow-up question: do you use Fi as the primary language to describe it? Is it the term you have found that best "fits" the concept, or do you use it here because it's something that people can understand, because it's the language spoken on the forum?

    p.s. I clicked the The Tao Te Ching link AHHHH!!! Just reading the first chapter I sort of went crazy... in a good way... like I cannot wait to read more and more and think about it in relation to everything else. And then as I am asking you all of these questions it somehow it clicks a little bit in my mind.

    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.

    So, I guess that is why I ask the questions... on some levels I am a little bit skeptical of limiting something to one name... but then giving a label of some kind is how we can communicate with other people and sort through things ourselves. It is like a tension between describing it enough to make SOME sense of it and not describing it so much that it becomes the description in our minds and we cannot perceive more of it revealed to us.

    And then I can feel that sentence I just wrote echoing, echoing, echoing against all of these different ideas I've heard from all these other places...

    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.

    I just want it to sit there and echo around a little bit or something.



    Sorry sorry sorry... this is not the thread topic at all. I am just so excited. I couldn't contain myself.
    It's all good. There's a lot of Fi in there, but there is even more Ni.

    The whole idea is to let it "echo around." It's rather introverted, and not easily given to verbalization. The Fi part is, in particular, letting go of the "good/bad" connotations of things, and understanding what they are. This is very similar to the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes of which I spoke. Different paths to the same thing.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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