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  1. #141
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    This really resonates with me. But I found myself thinking in terms of total F here; the roots being Fi and the branches being Fe and the trunk being where they resonate around each other in concentrical rings.

    This is probably the individualist speaking here , but I see it as 2 different trees growing next to each other. 1 for my personal values and 1 for the societal values. Because they are so close, there will be some overlap where the branches would intertwine. Fi, in this case, would be focused mainly on the personal tree + the overlap while Fe would be looking at the society tree + the overlap.

    In the worst case scenario for an Fi-user, the two trees are totally separate and he'll probably end up being a hermit of sorts.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  2. #142
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    This is probably the individualist speaking here , but I see it as 2 different trees growing next to each other. 1 for my personal values and 1 for the societal values. Because they are so close, there will be some overlap where the branches would intertwine. Fi, in this case, would be focused mainly on the personal tree + the overlap while Fe would be looking at the society tree + the overlap.
    Interesting... I like that.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    This is probably the individualist speaking here , but I see it as 2 different trees growing next to each other. 1 for my personal values and 1 for the societal values. Because they are so close, there will be some overlap where the branches would intertwine. Fi, in this case, would be focused mainly on the personal tree + the overlap while Fe would be looking at the society tree + the overlap.

    In the worst case scenario for an Fi-user, the two trees are totally separate and he'll probably end up being a hermit of sorts.
    Internally I get something the equivalent to this game on really high levels. Planarity
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #144
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The forest as metaphor - each axiom (value) is a tree. The roots are the foundational aspects of each axiom, invisible to us even. How we have come to embrace each value is almost mysterious. The trunk of the tree is the axiom, and our assertions and subjective judgements that we manifest in the world are the branches and so on. Then in our forest of axioms, are we. We are the forest, we live in this forest, are the caretakers of it, and it is one that we can shape to be beautiful, full of abundance, light and shadow places; or it can be dark and we can be lost within it, unable to elevate ourselves to the top of any given tree to see the bigger context in which we live.

    There's my thoughts for now. What resonates for you?
    That is really beautiful.

    I feel like I have a few big roots myself. Under stress or new circumstances, I can look at the roots and go-"oh crap" as I find the roots might overlap and dont make any sense. They may even contradict each other.

    For any normal situation I would take a logical path that causes the least harm-ignore those tangled roots.

    But in emotional situations, it doesnt matter how much I would like to take the Te logical path-Fi makes the final judgment. So I can logically understand I should respond a certain way-but still feel horrible guilt, remorse, or shame as Fi determines what is okay or not okay. Since Fi is so simplistic, I get stuck in this strange cyclical place. Fi-the child-determines if my actions were wrong or right, then Te-the adult-metes out punishment.

    To change those Fi roots? It takes pain, several days, and just letting my mind "reanneal" for lack of a better word. I have to allow feelings to happen, let Fi do whatever it is it is doing and just wait. When done-I "feel" differently. I have a new solution, a new root.

    But it is like doing math with handfuls of pudding from the Te perspective. There is nothing logical-just amorphous feeling goo stuff that oozes all together and then something new is defined.

    the embracing of values...Did you do this in childhood? When do you recall identifying these nascent values?

  5. #145
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    1 for my personal values and 1 for the societal values. Because they are so close, there will be some overlap where the branches would intertwine. Fi, in this case, would be focused mainly on the personal tree + the overlap while Fe would be looking at the society tree + the overlap.
    This is why I like the forest metaphor better I think. A variety of trees, at different rates of development, some we feed and water well, others we neglect.

    In the forest, the "care of self" tree next to the "care of others" tree could either grow in a good balance together, or one could crowd the other for space. We could mistakenly focus more on the Fe tree and our own Fi tree starts to stress ...

    And the trees intertwine, enmesh, interact with each other ...

    Anyway, you get the point. It allows for multiple perspectives.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #146
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Internally I get something the equivalent to this game on really high levels. Planarity
    Yeah, the tree is a simplification. It's probably closer to some form of neural-network with cases where multiple axioms giving birth to a single rule.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #147
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Question, how do you keep track of Fi values?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #148
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Question, how do you keep track of Fi values?
    I think you both choose them and try to learn/teach them to yourself. But there are also the subconscious values where you need to learn to listen to yourself deep inside to determine what they are.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Yeah, the tree is a simplification. It's probably closer to some form of neural-network with cases where multiple axioms giving birth to a single rule.
    And everyone is in a different place with different "exceptions" to the rule for different reasons some are temporary while others try to make some permanent to maintain integrity.

    This is why I personally choose to use Ti values to make sense of the mess without getting tangled in it.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #150
    A passer by yvonne's Avatar
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    uumlau

    more than a feeling!

    i didn't read all the posts on this thread, but my take on Fi now is that i can't treat it as a child anymore. it is too big a part of who i am for me to do that. all i can do is learn to live with it. as it is developing, i'm learning its value and its tricks. i want to cherish it, but most of all, i want to stay open intellectually (as well as emotionally to certain extent).
    Enneagram 5w4.

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