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  1. #111
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Just a quick note, if I may:

    Peacebaby's previous post or two:


    It's like your values exist outside of your core framework. Mine form parts of the key operating system.
    I like this. I think I fall somewhere between you two in using Fi. Peace's is her key operating system. Uumlau's is a dynamic system that can vary. Mine is part of my operating system (but definitely comes after Fe) and gets laid down over time and as I gain life experience. It truly is unconscious; I don't know it's happening and I don't really know how to describe it well. But I do know it's there, and it seems to get stronger as I go through life.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  2. #112
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmmm yes, I can't claim to have many trees that I swap out, not at all.

    Edit: I suppose I see each axiom as a tree with many branches in the forest of me.

    And then I live in my forest, for better or worse it seems. Feeling good or bad for me is irrelevant. Staying true to the axioms is. That doesn't mean I won't face them or change them. It's not easy though.
    I fall much closer to PeaceBaby on this issue, I think. I wouldn't say how I feel is irrelevant, exactly (since I may feel emotional upset that indicates I'm out of sync with my values), but I definitely can't just change things according to mood.

    I've also found that at times I've felt forced to go for extended periods of time out of sync with one of my values. I think that's a draining and humbling experience for an Fi-dom.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Uumlau's is a dynamic system that can vary. Mine is part of my operating system (but definitely comes after Fe) and gets laid down over time and as I gain life experience. It truly is unconscious; I don't know it's happening and I don't really know how to describe it well. But I do know it's there, and it seems to get stronger as I go through life.
    I feel that Fi values tend to be formed fairly organically out of experience. I don't think I consciously chose a lot of my values (although I do choose how they should be lived out). I think Fi tends to evaluate in real time, but those individual evaluations tend to accrete larger values through repetition and building resonance.

    When I am forced to re-evalute and (painfully) change, that involves a more of a conscious process (and perhaps engaging other functions, too).


    BTW... I definitely see Ni's tree swapping behavior with Ni-heavy folks... it's sometimes disconcerting to feel like everything is fair game, and that your conversational partner is busy pulling up the planking under your feet.

  3. #113
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ agreed; not irrelevant, because Fi wants to feel good; these feelings are like homing beacons, signals.

    I don't feel bad though and then swing-out to another forest; I look back at the trees in my forest and see which one I'm neglecting or damaging or which need to be chopped down and replanted. I think I even grow new ones, have sunny spots and contemplative spots in the forest too ...

    I've also found that at times I've felt forced to go for extended periods of time out of sync with one of my values. I think that's a draining and humbling experience for an Fi-dom.
    +100
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #114
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post

    I feel that Fi values tend to be formed fairly organically out of experience. I don't think I consciously chose a lot of my values (although I do choose how they should be lived out). I think Fi tends to evaluate in real time, but those individual evaluations tend to accrete larger values through repetition and building resonance.

    When I am forced to re-evalute and (painfully) change, that involves a more of a conscious process (and perhaps engaging other functions, too).
    I used to struggle with knowing if I was more Fe or Fi, because when I discovered functions, I found it difficult knowing myself that way contextually. I spoke with Eric B about it a fair amount (he is awesome, btw), and I realized that I have so many values and principles tied up around birthing and child-rearing, that I thought I was Fi. However, on further contemplation, I realized that previous to becoming pregnant, I had no real ideas or convictions about it at all really. All I knew is that I wanted to be a working woman and I was very goal-oriented. Then when I got pregnant the first time, I started realizing my Fe loyalties as I grew to love the baby within me; everything I thought I had wanted fell by the wayside and I became totally about and for my family. I sort-of ceased to exist in that; my focus totally became others. In focusing on others, I came to realize over time that I had developed values surrounding the actions of caring for others over the years. For example, in seeing how my children responded to spanking versus non-spanking, I developed a core value of non violent positive parenting. Based on how my babies thrived and how good it felt to nurture them, I became pro-breastfeeding. All these values started becoming present in me. For a while, I became a zealot about it (and some would say I still was prolly), but I think that was just weak Fi; wanting to apply my principles to others, but I came to realize others have a right to do what they will, which I perceive is stronger Fi.

    Anyway, had I not had kids and been a zoologist in a zoo, I'm sure my principles would be more aligned with animals. Same for working in an orphanage in Chile, etc. My thrust is Fe, but Fe repetitions become Fi.

    Does that sound right?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #115
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Yup. How things resonate internally is a big factor with Fi, and extreme shifts in mood can lead to extreme changes in position unless the Fi user is aware of this trap.

    EDIT: This is in regards to immature or undeveloped Fi. Fi aux are also more prone to this, as Fi isn't their primary function.
    I can comment to the under-devloped version of Fi-valid only for me, not ENFPs in general, as some seem to be very good with Fi-This extreme change in position is very true for me-but it feels more like "rocking" back and forth between Fi and Te. Normally I will always pick the Te answer-which is often based upon some vague Fi premise. But under massive stress-when the Ne bell is hit exceptionally hard-I will rock back and forth between Fi and Te. I really cant find the right answer. My opinion will change by the hour even until I can make the emotions settle and pain abate. It feels truly crazy. My mind feels torn. It is terrifying.

    Externally I have noted in my past, tendencies to enjoy the Ne moment over the nagging Fi-but I always pay later with extreme guilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Sort of. Good vs Evil. Mean vs Nice. Smart vs Dumb. Maturity is more of a function of the grace with which types these of things are wielded... I think some of this is inherent to Fi.
    In myself I identify this as very poor resolution of Fi. The judgments it makes are childlike and simplistic. I will apply internally to myself, quite harshly, but am exceptionally hesitant to make judgment calls about other people's moral behavior-I cant trust the Fi judgment to be valid. I can make generalities-stealing is bad, lying is bad, hurting others is horrifically wrong. But I would be hesitant to say "Udog that thing you said to PB was wrong as it violated her sense of individuality and blah blah blah" blah blah blah because I dont understand what sophisticated Fi values look like or what would offend PB. I know you should not hurt PB, You shouldnt lie, steal or be rude to PB. Beyond that? i dunno...

  6. #116
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I just wanted to say to everyone involved, here, that this is one of the coolest threads in which I've participated in a very long time. I think we're all sharing our understandings in a way that we all gain a piece of wisdom that we didn't have before.

    (I don't have anything else to add at this time, but I will, later on.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #117
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I had an "a-ha" moment myself there - very, very cool indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I know you should not hurt PB, You shouldnt lie, steal or be rude to PB. Beyond that? i dunno...
    That's right, treat the PB right! Or else ...

    Oh sorry, a dark side moment there.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #118
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post


    In myself I identify this as very poor resolution of Fi. The judgments it makes are childlike and simplistic. I will apply internally to myself, quite harshly, but am exceptionally hesitant to make judgment calls about other people's moral behavior-I cant trust the Fi judgment to be valid. I can make generalities-stealing is bad, lying is bad, hurting others is horrifically wrong. But I would be hesitant to say "Udog that thing you said to PB was wrong as it violated her sense of individuality and blah blah blah" blah blah blah because I dont understand what sophisticated Fi values look like or what would offend PB. I know you should not hurt PB, You shouldnt lie, steal or be rude to PB. Beyond that? i dunno...
    Well, I'd call this healthy Fi. It's more Fe that outwardly judges. I got that covered. I would have no problema calling someone out on their rudeness, and circumstances depending, get highly irritated at Fi for keeping everyone equal when some are obviously more to blame than others. Fe and Fi go head-to-head in this sort of scenario.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #119
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Is Fi useful for problem solving?

  10. #120
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Even a structure built to the highest standard, with the best materials and soundest, strongest foundation can fall.
    Especially if the building site was of poor quality... but life experience up to that point made it appear to be the best quality available.

    I speak as someone who has had one of his "axioms" laid to waste, and yeah, it was indeed devastating. But you know what? I survived... and I grew stronger because of it. Once I rebuilt enough of myself to properly function beyond a "mindless autonomous robot", I was able to see how clinging to my axiom caused me make all sorts of harmful (to me) judgments and mistakes.

    To me, a rigid axiom has danger of becoming a prison.

    Even the definition of axioms and what constitutes one changes over time. They are ultimately challengeable and fallable. However, that being said, one must assume a set and move forward with them, or no measurable growth or progress can be made either.

    In a world that is morally wishy-washy as it is, is there no merit in holding at least to a few key axioms? Has individuality made them all irrelevant and out-dated?

    I think part of the issue for me is defining what an axiom is ... I see it as the trunk of the tree.
    And branches are the various theorems? So what is the root of the tree? Aka, what goes into creating an axiom?

    Honestly, the axiom structure doesn't resonate with me that much. I guess whatever I have provides direction rather than answers. Perhaps my Fi just isn't all that developed, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Is Fi useful for problem solving?
    What kind of problems? Without knowing more, I will simply say "Yes". For me, Fi usage is especially critical in the early stages of problem solving. (Understand/Determine the problem, Develop requirements for a solution.)

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