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  1. #101
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Undeveloped Fi is not self-aware, and is not aware that it's not self-aware. It conveniently alters its beliefs to justify its wants ("Cheating is bad...... except, now cheating is okay because I'm lonely, and I don't need to tell my partner either because that's what they get for making me feel lonely.") It believes that it's right, and that the world is wrong for not bending to its whims. ("Why are people so <<enter complaint here>>, why can't they be more like me?") It's also unaccepting and is unusually obsessed with dichotomizing everything while also being closed off to nuances that threaten it's dichotomies.
    @bold: do you really believe that Udog? Do you see the moral core as that malleable?

    @purple: if you're not for me you're against me? Prone to said logical fallacy?

    Do you think an immature Fi user is the same thing as an undeveloped Fi user?

    Can a person be Fi dom and be undeveloped? Immature yes I could buy that, but undeveloped?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #102
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: do you really believe that Udog? Do you see the moral core as that malleable?
    Yup. How things resonate internally is a big factor with Fi, and extreme shifts in mood can lead to extreme changes in position unless the Fi user is aware of this trap.

    EDIT: This is in regards to immature or undeveloped Fi. Fi aux are also more prone to this, as Fi isn't their primary function.

    @purple: if you're not for me you're against me? Prone to said logical fallacy?
    Sort of. Good vs Evil. Mean vs Nice. Smart vs Dumb. Maturity is more of a function of the grace with which types these of things are wielded... I think some of this is inherent to Fi.

    Do you think an immature Fi user is the same thing as an undeveloped Fi user?

    Can a person be Fi dom and be undeveloped? Immature yes I could buy that, but undeveloped?
    Maturing and development go hand in hand, although I do imagine if we dig into it there are nuances between the two. And yes, I can definitely see an Fi-dom being undeveloped. We must be undeveloped before we are developed, right?

  3. #103
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Edit: OK, I see where you are going with your post Udog. Maybe we all need to agree on a common vocabulary to introduce as little extra confusion into an already confusing topic.

    ---

    To me axioms (Fi axioms?) are like internal commandments; they are a compass of guidance upon which I can found a moral firmament.

    If one were wrong, all one's life ... that's a devastation difficult to contemplate.

    Let's use a simple black and white example (and I'm not saying specifically this example is an axiom): an axiom that stealing is wrong.

    I don't just say - today I believe stealing is wrong; tomorrow, stealing is right. I might be forced to change my behaviour if my family was starving and somehow, I had to find food. But it would never make it right. It might make it even justifiable, but still it would not make it right.

    Your internal compass would not let you believe it so; if so, it would be a grand illusion to distract you from your own truth.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #104
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    I have a feeling this may be controversial, but I think that extreme core Fi malleability is a sign of undeveloped Fi. I also think that rock solid, immovable Fi is ALSO a sign of undeveloped Fi, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To me Fi axioms are like internal commandments; they are the manual, instructions and a compass upon which I can found a moral firmament.

    If one were wrong, all one's life ... that's a devastation difficult to contemplate.
    This is a problem that INFPs can run into. What if one of your axioms *is* wrong? Would you be willing to face that devastation? Or would you cling to your axiom at all costs... and "fight" to the bloody end, WINNING by any logical means, brute force tactics, or olive branch extending compromises, over whoever challenged it?

    Or have you designed your axioms such that they are 100% guaranteed to be correct?

    Let's use a simple black and white example (and I'm not saying specifically this example is an axiom): an axiom that stealing is wrong.

    I don't just say - today I believe stealing is wrong; tomorrow, stealing is right. I might be forced to change my behaviour if my family was starving and somehow, I had to find food. But it would never make it right. It might make it even justifiable, but still it would not make it right.

    Your internal compass would not let you believe it so; if so, it would be a grand illusion to distract you from your own truth.
    Yes, this is a good example of an Fi value in practice within an Fi-dom... I can relate to this.

  5. #105
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    PB, to explain how I use the terms:

    Immature = childlike, short-sighted, and responsibility avoiding.

    Undeveloped = lacking refinement and experience.

    It's not possible to be developed and immature, but I can see an argument made for any of the other combos being possible.

  6. #106
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I have a feeling this may be controversial, but I think that extreme core Fi malleability is a sign of undeveloped Fi. I also think that rock solid, immovable Fi is ALSO a sign of undeveloped Fi, though.
    Agreed.

    The common feature of both: neither is learning, growing, becoming.

    Mature Fi endeavors to understand, as opposed to simply feel (malleable Fi) or judge (rigid Fi).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #107
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Even a structure built to the highest standard, with the best materials and soundest, strongest foundation can fall.

    So, malleable and immovable Fi are both deemed undeveloped. What's to argue?

    ---

    Even the definition of axioms and what constitutes one changes over time. They are ultimately challengeable and fallable. However, that being said, one must assume a set and move forward with them, or no measurable growth or progress can be made either.

    In a world that is morally wishy-washy as it is, is there no merit in holding at least to a few key axioms? Has individuality made them all irrelevant and out-dated?

    In the modern understanding, a set of axioms is any collection of formally stated assertions from which other formally stated assertions follow by the application of certain well-defined rules. In this view, logic becomes just another formal system. A set of axioms should be consistent; it should be impossible to derive a contradiction from the axiom. A set of axioms should also be non-redundant; an assertion that can be deduced from other axioms need not be regarded as an axiom.
    I think part of the issue for me is defining what an axiom is ... I see it as the trunk of the tree.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #108
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think part of the issue for me is defining what an axiom is ... I see it as the trunk of the tree.
    Yeah, I'm evil like that. I switch out entire trees.

    Ni doms often complain about being misunderstood. This is one of the primary reasons: we see all these different ways of looking at the world. We will prefer a small set of these ways, but the others are still in our heads.

    Imagine having to try to explain that.

    My answer is to choose a single perspective for a single explanation and keep it clear. I think I might be using my Ni with Fi (not in a "loop") to switch out the perspectives and try on others. My Fi then decides which perspectives it "likes".

    Another way of putting it is that my Fi decides what kind of person I would like to be.

    I suspect that these particular Fi decisions of which I speak are your Fi axioms, PB.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #109
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Continuing:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So, what is an "Fi axiom"?

    ...
    I was going to outline some nuances but really, your experience is your experience and I appreciate you sharing it. To me, saying I am going to dance is not an axiom. Saying I will take action even if I am afraid is sort of closer ... but it goes farther than that.

    Here's an assertion I accepted for a long time: "The more you do something, the less afraid of it you will become." Just has never been proven true for me in my world. In fact, sometimes the fear just gets worse because the more expertise you gain you better understand ALL the things that could go wrong. A better assertion for me in this situation is "Feel the fear and do it anyway." (Get on that airplane, get on that stage...) But that even defies a certain wisdom that the emotions are trying to impart. It's not listening to the core whisper ... it is missing something, something key. I need to get to the core ... to the trunk of that tree. Then that wisdom will open like a leaf, to the truth. Everything leads to a greater truth (that would be an axiom). So what is the truth about this situation for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Immature Fi is controlled by your emotions.
    Mature Fi "controls" your emotions (through acceptance and understanding and wisdom and a bunch of things that don't quite fit into words)..
    To me there's another step. Mature Fi does not control your emotions. Heaven knows I've controlled mine plenty over the years. I used to see my massive self-control as a true aspect of maturity too. But mature Fi controls your reactions ... it permits the emotions their right to exist. Acknowledges, accepts, whatever you want to call it. Mature Fi is like the carbon filter in a fish-tank, processing and keeping the water pure.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Perhaps I just regard what I am doing as being at a very much deeper level than what she is doing, and had we words and objective things to point at, we'd be able to show how it's different perspectives and not so much different Fi-techniques..
    I know you didn't mean that badly, but it doesn't read well either.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It also might be the INTJ in me. I just swap out "rules" on the fly, all the time. It's what I do. The "rules" have no value beyond their utility. As long as the new set of rules work, and handles something new that I couldn't before, I go with the new rules..
    I have to admire that in a way; my rules are not as quickly interchangeable as yours. Thus I will sometimes try longer to fit a square peg in a round hole. But my "rules" are part of who I am - they have shaped my life, I don't just swap them around ... it just sounds so easy ... so disposable. It's like your values exist outside of your core framework. Mine form parts of the key operating system.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #110
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, I'm evil like that. I switch out entire trees.

    Ni doms often complain about being misunderstood. This is one of the primary reasons: we see all these different ways of looking at the world. We will prefer a small set of these ways, but the others are still in our heads.

    Imagine having to try to explain that.

    My answer is to choose a single perspective for a single explanation and keep it clear. I think I might be using my Ni with Fi (not in a "loop") to switch out the perspectives and try on others. My Fi then decides which perspectives it "likes".

    Another way of putting it is that my Fi decides what kind of person I would like to be.

    I suspect that these particular Fi decisions of which I speak are your Fi axioms, PB.
    Edit: I suppose I see each axiom as a tree with many branches in the forest of me.

    And, I can't claim to have any forests that I swap out, not at all.

    And then I live in my forest, for better or worse it seems. Feeling good or bad for me is irrelevant. Staying true to the axioms is. That doesn't mean I won't face them or change them. It's not easy though.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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