Fi Doms & Subs

[OrangeAppled]

My ISFP step-dad is moodier than any PMSing woman and has a hideous temper and cruel sarcastic streak (ENTJ shadow is scary....). This idea that ISFPs are just happy go lucky is ridiculous.

My ESFP sister & a good ESFP friend of mine are far more delusional and out of touch with reality than me on any day....

 

[Thalassa]

My ISFP step-dad is moodier than any PMSing woman and has a hideous temper and cruel sarcastic streak (ENTJ shadow is scary....). This idea that ISFPs are just happy go lucky is ridiculous.

My ESFP sister & a good ESFP friend of mine are far more delusional and out of touch with reality than me on any day....

I think these descriptions are very apt. My high school bf AND the longest relationship of my adult life AND my mother are all ESFPs, and yes, I identify with all you say here.

 

[Amargith]

My main issue with NFPs (irl and on this forum) has to do with a huge communication gap. The Ne is that is coupled with an NFP's Fi causes NFPs to make emotional connections and see emotional implications (hostile, hurtful, condescending, etc.) where I do not intend for there to be any emotional ties at all. My blunt style of communication lacks a certain amount of nicety to it, and this lack of nicety, for an imaginative Ne-er, is invariably viewed as [insert some negative emotion here].

SFPs, on the other hand, are more focused on what's actually apparent in the here and now instead of attempting to read into potential emotional connections and possible paths to hostility. They don't take offense until they've been given a clear-cut reason to be offended, rather than (mis)reading into the possible underlying connotation.

So yes, I think when I complain of Fi in regards to how I don't get along with it, I am typically speaking of Fi coupled with Ne.

(This isn't to say that SFPs, or any other type for that matter, don't generally possess features that bother me as well. I just think that the part of Fi that annoys me is more prominent in NFPs than SFPs.)

Yeah I guess I can see that. I have the same issue with ENTPs and their NeTi..they see logical and social implications that just *aren't* there for me and assume that I did something for motivations I never had...whereas with STPs their Ti takes apart my behavior and goes..ok, I need more information and they *ask* what my logic was there and don't assume *anything*.

Because Ne does the whole pattern seeking thing, together with Si, you base it often on patterns you've already seen before and the implications those patterns had. Se seems to just check what's in the moment and how to practically get the jist of it to actually get somewhere. I think Ne, when backed up by an openminded Fi or Ti can step out of its own perspective and truly see things from all angles, beyond Si's experiences so far. But it takes time and effort, to dig that deep and truly understand. And it is far easier to see a similar pattern and assume it'll give the same outcome as before and not doublecheck if everything really *is* the same. And that's where jumping to conclusions comes in.

Se is thorough in the moment, right there and then, so doesn't suffer from prejudices previously perceived, usually and is really good at solving the problem at hand or understanding that one part being discussed right there and then. Its downside seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong here) that it takes snap-shots and doesn't build an entire image, which means less info in the long run.

Ne on the other hand can be abused by a narrowminded Ti/Fi or a frightened/irritated Si, which makes it really tempting to jump to conclusions. When used properly though, it can go very much in depth and build a very extensive, rather accurate (motion) picture based on relatively little information.

 

[Kasper]

Fi in SFPs vs Fi in NFPs has always presented it to me differently irl. Say something has happened to upset a Fi user, this is my experience;

NFPs come across protective, guarded but not vocal about the issue until it's been bothering them for a while so if something has bothered them I may 'vibe' that something's wrong and feel like I've overstepped a boundary but asking a direct question will either be fobbed off or make things worse so I no longer know where I stand and what is acceptable which causes me to be wary and back off, depending on who they are and how and what they reacting to it may even upset me.

SFPs will usually distract me with something else unrelated as they don't want to focus on it or react immediately in an unmissable way, if they don't 'explode' so to speak I will not 'vibe' that I've bothered them unless they mention something.

Reading this thread I can see a micro version of that happening here (from my perspective), Quin and Wolfy give some ideas, Jeffster responds with something totally random, all posts leave me expecting that I can give my view, but a few NFPs suggest things that put me on edge, like if I say something contrary to their beliefs they will personally be offended and while I understand having to deal with stupid negative topics coming up again and again and getting sick of it, I don't understand the defensiveness so I don't know where I stand. I simply haven't experienced that uncertainty with SFPs.

 

[sculpting]

My main issue with NFPs (irl and on this forum) has to do with a huge communication gap. The Ne is that is coupled with an NFP's Fi causes NFPs to make emotional connections and see emotional implications (hostile, hurtful, condescending, etc.) where I do not intend for there to be any emotional ties at all. My blunt style of communication lacks a certain amount of nicety to it, and this lack of nicety, for an imaginative Ne-er, is invariably viewed as [insert some negative emotion here].

This makes sense.

Reading this thread I can see a micro version of that happening here (from my perspective), Quin and Wolfy give some ideas, Jeffster responds with something totally random, all posts leave me expecting that I can give my view, but a few NFPs suggest things that put me on edge, like if I say something contrary to their beliefs they will personally be offended and while I understand having to deal with stupid negative topics coming up again and again and getting sick of it, I don't understand the defensiveness so I don't know where I stand. I simply haven't experienced that uncertainty with SFPs.

So most enfps know we read into things-we understand tesla's point above, thus as you communicate, perhaps it is best not to worry about where you stand and just post what you think?? There will always be offense but inherently some form of communication.

Also-I think enfps can have a very terse Te bite in text and we shoot off at the mouth-or the keyboard-thus perhaps you guys Fe-read anger/hostility/combatitiveness into the situation sometimes? I dunno, just a suggestion.

For the record I have seen some batshit crazy ESFPs. They have the same anger/bitchslap issue ENFPs can have but the ENFP version is usually cuter and involves foot stomping. The ESFP version can escalate to physical violence.

 

[Thalassa]

The ESFP version can escalate to physical violence.

This.

 

[Sarcasticus]

Damn. I thought this was going to be about INFJs that are into BDSM. *leaves*

 

[BlackCat]

My main issue with NFPs (irl and on this forum) has to do with a huge communication gap. The Ne is that is coupled with an NFP's Fi causes NFPs to make emotional connections and see emotional implications (hostile, hurtful, condescending, etc.) where I do not intend for there to be any emotional ties at all. My blunt style of communication lacks a certain amount of nicety to it, and this lack of nicety, for an imaginative Ne-er, is invariably viewed as [insert some negative emotion here].

It's interesting, because I don't see any other types having a similar issue like this. NTJs and NFJs get along great (and usually prefer each other for romance). SFPs and STPs are fine, STJs and SFJs are fine, etc. But why would NTP and NFP turn out this way so commonly? Those other types *should* have similar issues, similar perception but judging it different. Yet the NPs are the only ones who conflict from it.

It really must be Ne. As you said, Fi with Ne assumes emotional implications. And that's because Ne is all about thinking out of context (while Se is thinking about the current context). And Fi would react to the NFPs perception of the implication, which when Ne is given room to wander, it will. And that's where the problem lies. With someone's blunt style, they will think that the person is trying to be hurtful. You know, all that jazz.

SFPs, on the other hand, are more focused on what's actually apparent in the here and now instead of attempting to read into potential emotional connections and possible paths to hostility. They don't take offense until they've been given a clear-cut reason to be offended, rather than (mis)reading into the possible underlying connotation.

Yup!

What people don't get is that TPs and FPs can get together just fine, but ENTP + NFP doesn't usually work out as well as the others. So when ENTPs experience this, their immature Si and their Ne makes them assume that all FPs are going to be bad partners (just how I see it work out on here anyway). It's not Fi that causes problems, it's Ne. And it's really obviously that too. When NFPs and ENTPs talk about what they don't like about each other, they label it "Ti" or "Fi" and then start talking about NeTi or Fi + Ne. You'd think that these hardcore rationalists would be able to notice that obvious fact.

 

[Randomnity]

Reading this thread I can see a micro version of that happening here (from my perspective), Quin and Wolfy give some ideas, Jeffster responds with something totally random, all posts leave me expecting that I can give my view, but a few NFPs suggest things that put me on edge, like if I say something contrary to their beliefs they will personally be offended and while I understand having to deal with stupid negative topics coming up again and again and getting sick of it, I don't understand the defensiveness so I don't know where I stand. I simply haven't experienced that uncertainty with SFPs.

Haha. Yeah. I was thinking that too.

 

[simulatedworld]

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that, like SFPs and their Fi is never offensive, crazy, and annoying. My eSFP ex is batshit crazy.

There are just certain stereotypes on this forum, most of which involve putting Ss down and complaining about how emo NFPs are.

It's almost like people just regurgitate the same complaints to have something to talk about. It's almost like following the crowd.

I'm starting to get bored with it.

I actually agree about FiSe; I think NTPs (your main critics) simply avoid that kind of annoying SFP instinctively, but we're less inclined to avoid NFPs because we usually find you more interesting. We value you for your Ne ability but we find Fi trite and irritating sometimes...with batshit crazy SFPs, we don't really see anything worth pursuing in the first place, so, spending so much more time with NFPs, NTPs probably notice their dislike of Fi in NFPs more often than in SFPs.

EDIT: Yes, as tesla notes, there is also the interpreting negative intentions where none exist problem. I've seen SFPs do this occasionally, but not nearly to the extent INFPs do.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ insightful post sim

One of my best friends is ISFP. When her feelings are predominant, she paints, gardens or plain old jumps around and screams to the sky. She does ecstatic dance and yoga and all of these physically grounding activities. At work, one afternoon the person closing the lunch room was going to throw out all the knives and forks because someone left all these dirty dishes in the sink. As an environmental activist, she was ready to literally hit him - I had to stage an intervention right there! (And I saved the cutlery too, no worries there.)

To me there is this general, inaccurate assumption that INFP dumps emo all around the world and I feel compelled to publically reject that view. Because my life personal experience is very contrary to this representation; I am very private and hold my feelings even closer to me. You may never know what I really feel because I keep any external expression tightly reigned in; like a delicate flower or crystal vase, emotions don't react well to rough handling. So I tend to their care myself. And trust only a very very select few to even see these precious glimpses into my soul.

On the forum though, when someone seems accusatory on Fi, I do rush to defend it, because if I don't, it seems like no one else will. My feelings are a part of me that I have had to learn to love whether I like them or not. So I feel like no one else has the right to attack them, or anyone else's feelings for that matter.

I can only speak for myself of course.

 

[simulatedworld]

I am very private and hold my feelings even closer to me. You may never know what I really feel because I keep any external expression tightly reigned in; like a delicate flower or crystal vase, emotions don't react well to rough handling. So I tend to their care myself. And trust only a very very select few to even see these precious glimpses into my soul.

INFP type 9 ftw!

It's the 4s that cause most of the trouble :hi:

 

[miss fortune]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (as I'm posting while doing stuff around the house) but a lot of times the threads on Fi or Ti (or Fe or Te) are located in the NF or NT subforums, which facilitates talk about N in conjunction with those functions as opposed to recognition of those functions in Sensors as well

I know I'd appreciate more plain discussions on the topic since Fi is one of those functions I have issues with and would like to develop a better understanding of, but Fi in an NF isn't exactly what I'm looking for!

 

[Seymour]

EDIT: Yes, as tesla notes, there is also the interpreting negative intentions where none exist problem. I've seen SFPs do this occasionally, but not nearly to the extent INFPs do.

My close ISFP friend tends to make different kinds of unwarranted leaps than I do. From my perspective, sometimes he'll pin his entire interpretation of an event on one detail in a way that seems odd to me. Also, sometimes it seems like his tertiary Ni will latch onto a couple of details and build a weird conspiracy-ish theory around them (this is especially true if he feels frustrated or stymied about something). His mood also seems more up or down moment to moment based on recent experiences than mine does.

On the plus side, he's much more able to enjoy the current moment, and I like that he both can live in the present (more so than I can) and still has lots of Fi-based emotional awareness.

I don't know how many of qualities are individual quirks vs. typical for ISFPs, though.

As far as INFP vs ENTP conflict online.. I seems like a combo of both INFPs reading things in that aren't there, and ENTPs using emotionally charged language (either unintentionally or for comic, intensifying and/or pot-stirring effect). INFPs know they wouldn't use such language unless there was corresponding feeling behind it, so impute those feelings to the ENTP. The ENTP reacts negatively to that, which just gives the INFP more negative verbiage to analyze and project into. Zany hilarity ensues.

To me there is this general, inaccurate assumption that INFP dumps emo all around the world and I feel compelled to publically reject that view. Because my life personal experience is very contrary to this representation. I am very private and hold my feelings even closer to me. You may never know what I really feel because I keep any external expression tightly reigned in; like a delicate flower or crystal vase, emotions don't react well to rough handling. So I tend to their care myself. And trust only a very very select few to even see these precious glimpses into my soul.

On the forum though, when someone seems accusatory on Fi, I do rush to defend it, because if I don't, it seems like no one else will. My feelings are a part of me that I have had to learn to love whether I like them or not. So I feel like no one else has the right to attack them, or anyone else's feelings for that matter.

I can only speak for myself of course.

I relate a lot to that, including rushing in to defend Fi (or other people's feelings). I also tend to keep a lot of my emotional state to myself (not that I've always kept my cool on here).

 

[Stanton Moore]

Disneyland had a cool sub.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It seems like a combo of both INFPs reading things in that aren't there, and ENTPs using emotionally charged language (either unintentionally or for comic, intensifying and/or pot-stirring effect). INFPs know they wouldn't use such language unless there was corresponding feeling behind it, so impute those feelings to the ENTP. The ENTP reacts negatively to that, which just gives the INFP more negative verbiage to analyze and project into. Zany hilarity ensues.

Haha, so true.

 

[simulatedworld]

As far as INFP vs ENTP conflict online.. I seems like a combo of both INFPs reading things in that aren't there, and ENTPs using emotionally charged language (either unintentionally or for comic, intensifying and/or pot-stirring effect). INFPs know they wouldn't use such language unless there was corresponding feeling behind it, so impute those feelings to the ENTP. The ENTP reacts negatively to that, which just gives the INFP more negative verbiage to analyze and project into. Zany hilarity ensues.

+10

 

[Chaolioe]

To me there is this general, inaccurate assumption that INFP dumps emo all around the world and I feel compelled to publically reject that view. Because my life personal experience is very contrary to this representation; I am very private and hold my feelings even closer to me. You may never know what I really feel because I keep any external expression tightly reigned in; like a delicate flower or crystal vase, emotions don't react well to rough handling. So I tend to their care myself. And trust only a very very select few to even see these precious glimpses into my soul.

Agree. Maybe it's an INFP 9w1 thing.

Also-I think enfps can have a very terse Te bite in text and we shoot off at the mouth-or the keyboard-thus perhaps you guys Fe-read anger/hostility/combatitiveness into the situation sometimes? I dunno, just a suggestion.

Yes. Te in any situation shoots off at the mouth, and that could definitely be the cause of the interpretation problem. Fe gets aggressive and raises its voice because they feel threatened and have some drive to win (in my experience, Fe leading older brother admitted to the feeling the need to win by shouting). Te on the other hand raises its voice when it thinks something is really important, and somehow being loud about it will make you understand. Like people who yell at foreigners in English as if being loud will suddenly teach them the language. Seeing as NTPs are more fit to understand Fe due to the Fe/Ti dynamic I've heard of, Ti probably interprets the ENFP tertiary Te raised voice/shooting of at the mouth the way it would Fe raised voice/shooting off at the mouth.

That's all supposition and theory...

It seems like a combo of both INFPs reading things in that aren't there, and ENTPs using emotionally charged language (either unintentionally or for comic, intensifying and/or pot-stirring effect). INFPs know they wouldn't use such language unless there was corresponding feeling behind it, so impute those feelings to the ENTP. The ENTP reacts negatively to that, which just gives the INFP more negative verbiage to analyze and project into. Zany hilarity ensues.

Fact.

 

[Lady_X]

It's interesting, because I don't see any other types having a similar issue like this. NTJs and NFJs get along great (and usually prefer each other for romance). SFPs and STPs are fine, STJs and SFJs are fine, etc. But why would NTP and NFP turn out this way so commonly? Those other types *should* have similar issues, similar perception but judging it different. Yet the NPs are the only ones who conflict from it.

It really must be Ne. As you said, Fi with Ne assumes emotional implications. And that's because Ne is all about thinking out of context (while Se is thinking about the current context). And Fi would react to the NFPs perception of the implication, which when Ne is given room to wander, it will. And that's where the problem lies. With someone's blunt style, they will think that the person is trying to be hurtful. You know, all that jazz.



Yup!

What people don't get is that TPs and FPs can get together just fine, but ENTP + NFP doesn't usually work out as well as the others. So when ENTPs experience this, their immature Si and their Ne makes them assume that all FPs are going to be bad partners (just how I see it work out on here anyway). It's not Fi that causes problems, it's Ne. And it's really obviously that too. When NFPs and ENTPs talk about what they don't like about each other, they label it "Ti" or "Fi" and then start talking about NeTi or Fi + Ne. You'd think that these hardcore rationalists would be able to notice that obvious fact.

ha! oh wow...for real... shit! it all makes perfect sense! damn...that sucks tho!

 

[PeaceBaby]

Agree. Maybe it's an INFP 9w1 thing.

Well, I can only speak to what I know.

I think it's better to look at individual situations and people and cease the generalizations. Makes for a better experience.