User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 102

Thread: Fi Doms & Subs

  1. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,498

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There is a core argument that revolves around the Ti users apparently lacking personal integrity (expressing emotions that are not "felt," but are instead expressed for effect, to make a point, for example), and the Fi users apparently lacking any logical consistency (because Fi principles are personal integrity axioms, not subject to disproof by Ti-style logical inconsistency arguments). Typically, each makes arguments that the other considers invalid.

    Neither side steps back to reflect upon what is going on, because core values of both are violated. The focus of both sides is to defend, not to discover.
    I am going to explain how I use this. I will make it clear I am using this to make a point. I want the point to be immediately visible, I also make the decision 100% so when the other side becomes defensive I respond to the defense as opposed to becoming defensive myself. I have more of a problem with Ti/Fe people honestly in regard to things becoming defensive because its Ti/Fe and I can choose to escalate in the same manner they do in regards to voice, etc. I would think this is similiar for Fi/Te escalations as well. Escalate in "felt" and escalation in bluntness. In certain Ti/Fe types this type of using things out of effect is more of a first line of defense.

    I have used this with my mom on a few occasions, I get loud for a single statement when she becomes what I consider stubborn in regards to a personal opinion that I will not backdown on, I honestly understand why she is that way, I attack a single statement and become loud, but not yelling, its an extremely firm voice, then back down in a way that is apparent. The second after I do this I will go back to a normal voice, continue the conversation in a normal manner. It basically kills her escalation. She does the same thing to my logic at times. I logically run around with reasons and she uses "felt" to put her foot down and I back down as I can tell this matters alot to her. While the possibility exists for this type of behaviour to escalate really bad, it actually escalates the worse within Ti/Fe types. Because the Fi/Te and the Ti/Fe have a huge difference in what matters it has never really escalated very far in the real world. ESTP and ISTP are really good at reading this within each other and we will back down. Its read as a "dont go down that road" and its respected whether its true or not.

    Because I use this with values only and because Ti and Fi personal values differ its never been a problem. When its used for simply "morality" then it really complicates things because now you are bringing in values that dont even apply between the people in the argument, its turned into the "principle".

    I have told my son, dont make me reach the point of having to yell. When I reach this point of yelling its for effect, its quick and if it doesnt work I go somewhere that is even worse for him and start taking things away. This point is when he starts crying, the yelling is a startle effect and a warning for somethinng worse. He defines whats worse, not me. When it is felt I will walk away as I dont want to emotionally lose control and regret what happens when people lose control.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #82
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To me there is this general, inaccurate assumption that INFP dumps emo all around the world and I feel compelled to publically reject that view. Because my life personal experience is very contrary to this representation; I am very private and hold my feelings even closer to me. You may never know what I really feel because I keep any external expression tightly reigned in; like a delicate flower or crystal vase, emotions don't react well to rough handling. So I tend to their care myself. And trust only a very very select few to even see these precious glimpses into my soul.

    The only place I've seen the theme of NFP/ENTP miscommunication is this message board. I say "ENTP" because I don't even notice the trend with INTPs. I get along swimmingly with many online.
    PB-I have never seen an INFP emo-dump honestly. ENFPs-oh yes.

    Even in real life some of my biggest fights with my best friend ENTP have been about Fi/Ti. I LOVE her. I ADORE her. I didnt talk to her for a week after she got in an argument with me about Fi and it's selfish nature. Typically the fight starts with an accurate observation on her part then ends at me saying-"But it's just right. I am right." "Why are you right?" she will say, then head into an Fe moment of how my being "right" is selfish.

    There is something very gut level about Fi and its motives, that trigger a sensitive spot in NFPs...

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I am going to explain how I use this. I will make it clear I am using this to make a point. I want the point to be immediately visible, I also make the decision 100% so when the other side becomes defensive I respond to the defense as opposed to becoming defensive myself. I have more of a problem with Ti/Fe people honestly in regard to things becoming defensive because its Ti/Fe and I can choose to escalate in the same manner they do in regards to voice, etc. I would think this is similiar for Fi/Te escalations as well. Escalate in "felt" and escalation in bluntness. In certain Ti/Fe types this type of using things out of effect is more of a first line of defense.

    I have used this with my mom on a few occasions, I get loud for a single statement when she becomes what I consider stubborn in regards to a personal opinion that I will not backdown on, I honestly understand why she is that way, I attack a single statement and become loud, but not yelling, its an extremely firm voice, then back down in a way that is apparent. The second after I do this I will go back to a normal voice, continue the conversation in a normal manner. It basically kills her escalation. She does the same thing to my logic at times. I logically run around with reasons and she uses "felt" to put her foot down and I back down as I can tell this matters alot to her. While the possibility exists for this type of behaviour to escalate really bad, it actually escalates the worse within Ti/Fe types. Because the Fi/Te and the Ti/Fe have a huge difference in what matters it has never really escalated very far in the real world. ESTP and ISTP are really good at reading this within each other and we will back down. Its read as a "dont go down that road" and its respected whether its true or not.

    Because I use this with values only and because Ti and Fi personal values differ its never been a problem. When its used for simply "morality" then it really complicates things because now you are bringing in values that dont even apply between the people in the argument, its turned into the "principle".

    I have told my son, dont make me reach the point of having to yell. When I reach this point of yelling its for effect, its quick and if it doesnt work I go somewhere that is even worse for him and start taking things away. This point is when he starts crying, the yelling is a startle effect and a warning for somethinng worse. He defines whats worse, not me. When it is felt I will walk away as I dont want to emotionally lose control and regret what happens when people lose control.
    I saw this with my ex ISTP-especially the bolded underlined part. He only reached this point maybe five times when we were together.

  3. #83
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Which side is that?
    Well, in a battle of wills and attrition, which side do you think will get exhausted and back down first?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #84
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ even just plain ol' introvert vs extrovert energy ... the e's got it!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,498

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I saw this with my ex ISTP-especially the bolded underlined part. He only reached this point maybe five times when we were together.
    He reached this whats worse part with you? I reach the whats worse part with my son because I have to be able to control him as he is a child. I have never reached this with anyone else. I fight a whole different side of myself with my son then I do with anyone else. I havnt ever used this parent-child relationship with anyone else that I am aware of. He also pushes my buttons in the same manner that seems to fit some of the ISTPs on here. I generally choose to avoid these people.

    I want the point to be immediately visible, I also make the decision 100% so when the other side becomes defensive I respond to the defense as opposed to becoming defensive myself
    This with my wife tends to lead in huge defensive circles as opposed to attacking each other where it hurts. Its argueing based on reasoning and really it would be arguing based on Ti values. We can eventually reach the same agreement, but since we judge values the same its harder as we are in different places in our Ti value of things. I tend to run her in circles because her Ti values arent as worked out to the depth that mine are. Most of the time its her fighting for principle and me ending up in Ti values.

    The only times I have really used this with my mom were in defense of someone else. You may pick this up here with me when I become defensive for others. It takes a whole lot for me to hit this place out of personal defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    PB-I have never seen an INFP emo-dump honestly. ENFPs-oh yes.

    Even in real life some of my biggest fights with my best friend ENTP have been about Fi/Ti. I LOVE her. I ADORE her. I didnt talk to her for a week after she got in an argument with me about Fi and it's selfish nature. Typically the fight starts with an accurate observation on her part then ends at me saying-"But it's just right. I am right." "Why are you right?" she will say, then head into an Fe moment of how my being "right" is selfish.

    There is something very gut level about Fi and its motives, that trigger a sensitive spot in NFPs...
    Dont confuse Fi selfishness with personal selfishness. This is where I try not to attack a group on a whole, but can see the reasons. Honestly the Fi people that I am attracted towards(not romantically, just really enjoy being around) lack this selfish nature alot. They have huge hearts and its obvious just by listening to them and one way I tend to judge this is because they are actually very logical in regards to the times when they feel a need to be selfish. I can see the logic behind what they are saying and its like IMO it justifies the desire or the frustration they have and that frustration has revolved around "trying" to not be selfish and the problems it causes. Something about these people doesnt hit any Ti values.

    All selfish really means is getting your own wants over the others. Its hard to tell because I have been told I am selfish simply for expressing these wants(which seems to sound like an Fe thing to do). Selfishness is something that just needs to be worked out and balanced. Its not solely tied to Fi, but because Fe has selfish tied to expression I do see how Fi can "appear" selfish even when they are not.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #86
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, "truth" and "honesty" are both virtues, but it is trivially easy to be truthful and/or honest, and use the truth to do evil things. Fi/Te preferences tend to incur a degree of ignorance to the possibility, that being truthful and perhaps harsh (Te) is acceptable, though sympathy and affection might be applied afterward (Fi). Ti/Fe would rather avoid the harshness if it is not merited.
    In the case of Ti/Fe I think it depends on which one is valued above the other. I think a lot of TPs consider incorrectness just cause for "harshness" (the definition of which is relative) in many cases, but I don't see FJs doing that a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you might be misreading things a bit, here, SW. It isn't a case of "never squelching" and certainly not "no matter what." INFPs hide their feelings, generally. The part to which you object is that when you hit a hot-button issue, perhaps unintentionally, with an INFP, they start throwing their Fi-reasoning at you, which you perceive as "a certain sense of entitlement."
    I don't believe that INFPs generally hide their feelings. That is part of the distinction I'm drawing between 4s and 9s; type 9 is more focused on maintaining the peace and thus less likely to argue, while type 4 is more insistent on sticking up for its values.

    I find that type 4s insist on others catering to their values more often than type 9s. I understand why they're doing that; I just find it selfish and unreasonable in many cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    My primary point here is that you've entered an arena which is important to the INFP (or xNFP in general). Until you actually address the important matter in terms that the xNFP can understand, they won't back down. It's too important to back down.
    I've noticed this.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Here's a question for you, Sim: do you have this xNFP problem outside of forums? If you do, then it might be worth figuring out how to handle it with real people in real life, and that might translate into handling it on the forum. If you don't, then perhaps there's an essential ingredient/signal missing in forum-land upon which you would usually rely to navigate the problem.
    Not very often. I know a few particular NFPs who abuse emotional blackmail and guilt tripping in order to always have their feelings catered to, but I also have a good number of NFP friends and most of them don't generally do that kind of thing.

    I'm aware of how to deal with it now; I've learned since PB and a few others explained the reasoning. In the case of difficult NFPs in real life I'm much more likely to just ignore it even when I think they're being ridiculous, but that's really only because I prefer preserving those personal relationships to fighting it out and possibly alienating them permanently. When they're not in emo meltdown mode they're often pretty enjoyable people.

    I realize their intention is usually just to maintain their personal integrity, not manipulate others, but sometimes they end up doing a lot of emotionally manipulative things without really realizing it. I don't often call people out on it in real life because I care about not alienating most people in real life, but as far as virtually anonymous internet arguments go...there are some people I just don't care about alienating or offending.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    To the topic at hand, of Ne-users with Ti and Fi repeatedly battling it out on the forum. I think it's how Ne works, except here the core values, Ti and Fi, are often antithetical. Ti demands a logical consistency of ideas, and will argue endlessly against anyone who appears to be voicing inconsistent ideas. Fi demands personal integrity (subjective self-consistency), and expects it primarily of oneself, but also of others.
    That's certainly true.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There is a core argument that revolves around the Ti users apparently lacking personal integrity (expressing emotions that are not "felt," but are instead expressed for effect, to make a point, for example), and the Fi users apparently lacking any logical consistency (because Fi principles are personal integrity axioms, not subject to disproof by Ti-style logical inconsistency arguments). Typically, each makes arguments that the other considers invalid.
    Also true.


    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Neither side steps back to reflect upon what is going on, because core values of both are violated. The focus of both sides is to defend, not to discover.
    Well, I don't really expect to convince an INFP that his Fi value is wrong--that's clearly not going to happen. A lot of times, when I think someone is being ridiculous, I focus more on entertaining people who already agree with me than on actually convincing the opposing party--like a pundit, kind of. This usually happens when I'm already pretty certain the opposing party can't be convinced.

    Note that I never carry on this kind of argument in PM. There's no point because I'm not going to convince the NFP and no one else is listening.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I do feel somewhat uncomfortable now sim that you've made a distinction between type 4's and 9's ... I know you know my enneagram type and thus may be using our interactions as a basis to make a new "rule" that works to explain certain behaviours.
    It's not a rule; it's an observation that's supported by the descriptions of 4 vs. 9 values. It's subject to change if contradicting information comes up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    However, you know I will argue an point until I've made it; will seek to illuminate my POV and can be very determined in doing so. I do think I take more pains to bridge the gap between our communication styles, but I am not convinced you can attribute all that to simply being a 9 wing. My particular upbringing, my age and life experience all play a part in having determined what works and what doesn't work in these particular situations.
    Well obviously enneagram type is not the only factor at work here; I'm just noting the trends I've seen. Clearly differences between individuals will come into play and I'm sure you can find some INFP 9s who are more argumentative than some INFP 4s; that's beside the point I'm making.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Young ENTP's are some of my favorite people. Confident and headstrong. Trying to make the world fit into a construct yet at the same time engaged in all the possibilities, thus attempting to reconcile if and how they fit too - a wonderful oxymoron.

    To me Seymour summarized the communication difficulties succinctly and precisely. I'll go back and get that quote.
    His quote seems to me an accurate assessment of the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    sim, I probably feel as angry as any other 4 wing sometimes ... and I do tend to rush to defend feelings in most contexts. Many people PM'd or repped me to drop my discussion with you in Pretentious Fi ("It's not worth it PB!") But our combined tenacity brought us to an understanding, at least a little better one, and thus a better rapport. Most people will give up on the discussion long before I did, not because I'm better, but because I was determined to find our common ground. That's the 9 wing at work - I could not let that go til we could communicate on a more equal footing. I did not want conflict to remain between us. 4 wings are more comfortable with conflict. I feel more threatened by it. Thus I will work on eradicating it.
    It's not a 9 wing; if you're a type 9, your wing is either 8 or 1.

    But yes I agree that's partially due to the 9 type vs. the 4 type. Doesn't that support my conclusion about the tendencies of INFP 9s vs. INFP 4s?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As far as other's reactions: Satine is also one who will work to try to enhance understanding, but she won't sugar-coat her responses. OA and marmy get pissed at you because to them it's the same old sim over and over again, who never listens and paints them with the same brush, so they just don't think you're worth the time or trouble.

    Summary: It is deeper than "INFP 4's are the trouble, 9's aren't."
    Oh well, they're welcome to ignore me if they want to.

    You don't think I really believe that all INFP 4s are more troublesome than all INFP 9s, do you?

    I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find a few ISFPs with more aggressive personalities than a few ENTJs...that doesn't really negate the statement that ENTJs are more aggressive than ISFPs. It's just a statement of trends, not a precise description of every individual.

    If you're not willing to speak in generalized terms that describe the average tendencies of groups (and, by necessity, do not apply to every individual in the group), I don't understand how typology makes any sense to you.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #87
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's not a rule; it's an observation that's supported by the descriptions of 4 vs. 9 values. It's subject to change if contradicting information comes up.
    Just be careful not to apply it like a rule; your wording makes it appear concrete.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's not a 9 wing; if you're a type 9, your wing is either 8 or 1.
    Correct. I don't know why I typed it that way, but I do realize the distinction. Thanks for the pointing out the error. I have amended my post accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    But yes I agree that's partially due to the 9 type vs. the 4 type. Doesn't that support my conclusion about the tendencies of INFP 9s vs. INFP 4s?
    I guess I personally don't see enough anecdotal evidence to truly support it. Admittedly, I can see though why you are making the generalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You don't think I really believe that all INFP 4s are more troublesome than all INFP 9s, do you?
    I'm not sure ...

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you're not willing to speak in generalized terms that describe the average tendencies of groups (and, by necessity, do not apply to every individual in the group), I don't understand how typology makes any sense to you.
    The descriptions are general enough I can see myself reflected in them; then in turn I look at the individuals who claim to be the same type and see if they still fit my interpretation of the generalizations. I suppose I turn it inside out - I look at the individuals comprising the group then extrapolate from that, rather than the other way around. Sort of coming full-circle, as it were.

    I agree that there could be more communication challenges with one enneatype vs another; I would be interested to see if that trend (INFP 9vs4) is more "borne out" over time. Or, if one were to go back through older posts, and trend the MBTI and enneatype together, to see if it could either support or negate such an hypothesis.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #88
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If another musician my age asks for serious critique of his work, I will be completely honest if I think it's terrible. (I'll also suggest constructive ways to improve it, but I'm not going to lie.)

    This is almost certainly an Fe value on my part, but I feel that there are situations in which honesty is actually less moral than dishonesty, and the problem I have with some INFPs (especially 4s) is that they don't make this distinction. I think there are times when you need to shut up and keep your feelings quiet for the sake of the good of others.

    I find it unreasonable to never squelch your true feelings no matter what. I feel that certain INFP 4s are especially prone to a certain sense of entitlement to always have their feelings catered to regardless of the situation and I think that's selfish.
    Someone asking for a professional critique of their work for the sake of their own improvement, that's different from social interactions. The two situations can't really be interchanged.

  9. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,498

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you're not willing to speak in generalized terms that describe the average tendencies of groups (and, by necessity, do not apply to every individual in the group), I don't understand how typology makes any sense to you.
    Its a completely different way of processing actually and it works very well. Its used to understand people and how they interact and I use typology as a method of communication really. To do this you have to disconnect from any hard set definitions of typology though. So typology is a means to an end which the end is understanding people, not typology.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #90
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Its a completely different way of processing actually and it works very well. Its used to understand people and how they interact and I use typology as a method of communication really. To do this you have to disconnect from any hard set definitions of typology though. So typology is a means to an end which the end is understanding people, not typology.
    Agreed--I use typology to get a general idea of how I can expect a person's outlook to be set up, and then from there I start taking individual notes about that person's unique idiosyncrasies. It's nice to have a general mold to start from though.


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Someone asking for a professional critique of their work for the sake of their own improvement, that's different from social interactions. The two situations can't really be interchanged.
    You're right; I did not mean that INFPs would be likely to tell the kid his song sucks. I only wrote that as an illustration of the idea that I sometimes think dishonesty>honesty in certain situations, since PB asked if I value truth and honesty.


    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Well, in a battle of wills and attrition, which side do you think will get exhausted and back down first?
    Well, I don't know. Extroverts can handle more prolonged interaction with others, but I__Ps are dominant in a Judgment function, and thus even more attached to their subjective ideals for evaluating things than E__Ps. It could go either way.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] Fi-Doms and Physical Feeling
    By Abbey in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-28-2013, 05:44 AM
  2. [Fi] Fi doms, describe your relationship with your emotions.
    By SoraMayhem in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-13-2013, 03:45 PM
  3. [Fi] are Fi doms prone to paranoia?
    By prplchknz in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 12-06-2012, 02:08 PM
  4. [Fi] How do you successfully compliment an Fi-dom?
    By Lightyear in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 06-22-2011, 07:41 AM
  5. Public Service Announcement to Paranoid Fi doms
    By simulatedworld in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 490
    Last Post: 02-01-2010, 10:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO