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Thread: Fi Doms & Subs

  1. #71
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    And so on this forum, the situation is that you...do not value people who speak up for them and consider what you're saying to be misrepresentative of who they are?
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  2. #72
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Case in point: INFP 9>>>>>INFP 4.

    By the way, "ENTPs vying for attention" is not mutually exclusive from "negative interaction with type 4 NFPs." In fact the two seem rather correlated, so I'm not sure I understand your point.
    Correlated on this message board because of you & a few other ENTPs. Sounds like your problem to me. I don't have this problem in my life.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #73
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Correlated on this message board because of you & a few other ENTPs. Sounds like your problem to me. I don't have this problem in my life.
    What exactly is your point? To argue over whether ENTPs or INFP 4s are responsible for the Fi wars on this forum?

    I'm pretty sure it takes at least two people to carry on an argument. You really can't blame either side exclusively here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    And so on this forum, the situation is that you...do not value people who speak up for them and consider what you're saying to be misrepresentative of who they are?
    Whether or not I value any given person depends on a lot of variables. This question is very situational. I don't place unconditional value on speaking one's true feelings, no. I think there are times when it's very important to do so, times when it's very important not to, and times when it doesn't matter either way.

    I do, however, think the right to free speech is vital--just because I'm aggressively arguing with you doesn't mean I don't support your right to voice your opinion. I'm just equally supportive of, and willing to exercise, my own right to tell you that I think your opinion is garbage.

    And I'm also equally supportive of your right to tell me you think my assessment of your opinion as garbage is garbage. You can see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #74
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm pretty sure it takes at least two people to carry on an argument. You really can't blame either side exclusively here.
    Yup, gotta agree here. Trying to get an ENTP to stop talking bluntly is like trying to get a INFP 4 to not stay true to self. Problem is, just like it takes two to start an argument, it also usually takes two to stop/resolve one. Both sides have gotta bend a bit, and from my somewhat short experience in reading these threads, one side is bending way more than the other.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  5. #75
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I completely agree with you, and don't know that this can be attributed exclusively to Fe. The example with the child seems quite extreme - is your experience SERIOUSLY that INFP 4s would do this as a common behavior?
    No, absolutely not. I didn't mean to imply that that situation was typical INFP 4 behavior. It was intended only as an example of a time when I find dishonesty morally superior to honesty, since amargith asked if I value honesty and truth.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #76
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    But Sim, you seem to get annoyed at those that exercise that right and consider them troublemakers. It would appear you'd prefer them to not exercise that right
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  7. #77
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Yup, gotta agree here. Trying to get an ENTP to stop talking bluntly is like trying to get a INFP 4 to not stay true to self. Problem is, just like it takes two to start an argument, it also usually takes two to stop/resolve one. Both sides have gotta bend a bit, and from my somewhat short experience in reading these threads, one side is bending way more than the other.
    Which side is that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    But Sim, you seem to get annoyed at those that exercise that right and consider them troublemakers. It would appear you'd prefer them to not exercise that right
    Well, I can't very well say I think troublemaking should be disallowed, now can I?

    Seriously though, there's a difference between holding the opinion that someone else's opinion is not worth stating, and holding the opinion that the speaker shouldn't have a right to state it. I don't think anything the INFP 4s have done is worthy of disciplinary action and I think they're well within their rights to be doing it.

    It's just that I'm also well within my rights to argue with them about it, and my opinion may include a belief that (some of) their opinions are (at times) really dumb.

    I'm the one always complaining the forum is over-moderated, remember?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (as I'm posting while doing stuff around the house) but a lot of times the threads on Fi or Ti (or Fe or Te) are located in the NF or NT subforums, which facilitates talk about N in conjunction with those functions as opposed to recognition of those functions in Sensors as well

    I know I'd appreciate more plain discussions on the topic since Fi is one of those functions I have issues with and would like to develop a better understanding of, but Fi in an NF isn't exactly what I'm looking for!
    It has crossed my mind many times that it would be nice to bring in an ISFP perspective on Fi to get a different angle, but I have also thought that it would be dismissed for being to simple and plain. I dont think it would lack the expansion that Ne adds to the definition. I see this with INTP and Ti. Way to much is added in regard to capability as opposed to what Ti is. At that point how do you not bring in all the other functions into the mix and end up with seperate definitions for dom Ti vs aux Ti vs tert Ti.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #79
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I value truth and honesty situationally.
    Yes, "truth" and "honesty" are both virtues, but it is trivially easy to be truthful and/or honest, and use the truth to do evil things. Fi/Te preferences tend to incur a degree of ignorance to the possibility, that being truthful and perhaps harsh (Te) is acceptable, though sympathy and affection might be applied afterward (Fi). Ti/Fe would rather avoid the harshness if it is not merited.

    I find it unreasonable to never squelch your true feelings no matter what. I feel that certain INFP 4s are especially prone to a certain sense of entitlement to always have their feelings catered to regardless of the situation and I think that's selfish.
    I think you might be misreading things a bit, here, SW. It isn't a case of "never squelching" and certainly not "no matter what." INFPs hide their feelings, generally. The part to which you object is that when you hit a hot-button issue, perhaps unintentionally, with an INFP, they start throwing their Fi-reasoning at you, which you perceive as "a certain sense of entitlement."

    My primary point here is that you've entered an arena which is important to the INFP (or xNFP in general). Until you actually address the important matter in terms that the xNFP can understand, they won't back down. It's too important to back down.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Correlated on this message board because of you & a few other ENTPs. Sounds like your problem to me. I don't have this problem in my life.
    Here's a question for you, Sim: do you have this xNFP problem outside of forums? If you do, then it might be worth figuring out how to handle it with real people in real life, and that might translate into handling it on the forum. If you don't, then perhaps there's an essential ingredient/signal missing in forum-land upon which you would usually rely to navigate the problem.


    To the topic at hand, of Ne-users with Ti and Fi repeatedly battling it out on the forum. I think it's how Ne works, except here the core values, Ti and Fi, are often antithetical. Ti demands a logical consistency of ideas, and will argue endlessly against anyone who appears to be voicing inconsistent ideas. Fi demands personal integrity (subjective self-consistency), and expects it primarily of oneself, but also of others.

    There is a core argument that revolves around the Ti users apparently lacking personal integrity (expressing emotions that are not "felt," but are instead expressed for effect, to make a point, for example), and the Fi users apparently lacking any logical consistency (because Fi principles are personal integrity axioms, not subject to disproof by Ti-style logical inconsistency arguments). Typically, each makes arguments that the other considers invalid.

    Neither side steps back to reflect upon what is going on, because core values of both are violated. The focus of both sides is to defend, not to discover.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #80
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I do feel somewhat uncomfortable now sim that you've made a distinction between type 4's and 9's ... I know you know my enneagram type and thus may be using our interactions as a basis to make a new "rule" that works to explain certain behaviours.

    However, you know I will argue an point until I've made it; will seek to illuminate my POV and can be very determined in doing so. I do think I take more pains to bridge the gap between our communication styles, but I am not convinced you can attribute all that to simply being a 9 type. My particular upbringing, my age and life experience all play a part in having determined what works and what doesn't work in these particular situations.

    Young ENTP's are some of my favorite people. Confident and headstrong. Trying to make the world fit into a construct yet at the same time engaged in all the possibilities, thus attempting to reconcile if and how they fit too - a wonderful oxymoron.

    To me Seymour summarized the communication difficulties succinctly and precisely. I'll go back and get that quote.

    It seems like a combo of both INFPs reading things in that aren't there, and ENTPs using emotionally charged language (either unintentionally or for comic, intensifying and/or pot-stirring effect). INFPs know they wouldn't use such language unless there was corresponding feeling behind it, so impute those feelings to the ENTP. The ENTP reacts negatively to that, which just gives the INFP more negative verbiage to analyze and project into. Zany hilarity ensues.
    sim, I probably feel as angry as any other 4 type sometimes ... and I do tend to rush to defend feelings in most contexts. Many people PM'd or repped me to drop my discussion with you in Pretentious Fi ("It's not worth it PB!") But our combined tenacity brought us to an understanding, at least a little better one, and thus a better rapport. Most people will give up on the discussion long before I did, not because I'm better, but because I was determined to find our common ground. That's the 9 at work - I could not let that go til we could communicate on a more equal footing. I did not want conflict to remain between us. 4's are more comfortable with conflict. I feel more threatened by it. Thus I will work on eradicating it.

    As far as other's reactions: Satine is also one who will work to try to enhance understanding, but she won't sugar-coat her responses. OA and marmy get pissed at you because to them it's the same old sim over and over again, who never listens and paints them with the same brush, so they just don't think you're worth the time or trouble.

    Summary: It is deeper than "INFP 4's are the trouble, 9's aren't."
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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