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  1. #61
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    The window for languages is up to age 6, give or take a couple of months. After that it shuts down pretty fast.

    It could be why as twins we could "speak" with each other and respond even before 2, but now have no recollection of it. I've listened to the tapes before and it does not make sense, but you clearly hear one speaking and one responding, the way a conversation goes.

    * If twins raised in similar environments are already somewhat different, what more those raised in different environments?

    Or even if we take away the twin part, are the MBTI types unchangeable throughout? i.e. whom you were as a child is who you'll be as an adult?

  2. #62
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    I’m not sure if I was born ENTP or if my environment shaped it. I am pretty sure the NTP was there always but I think the E developed out of rebellion.

    When I was a child my home was filled with mental and physical abuse (both parents). And when say abused I mean abused. I can distinctly remember being 6 and left a spot on a dish I was supposed to wash. My mother decided the punishment for that was to be dragged through the house by my hair, thrown into the seat of a recliner and jumped on knees first. That was my earliest memory of abuse.

    I was also picked on at school until the 7th grade so I was a really quiet child and very shy (I). I kept to myself most of the time and internalized all my thoughts to escape to my own world (N). This escape was often so refreshing I would forget anything and everything, homework, where I put my house key etc... (P). I studied the world around me and tried to figure out how and why things worked. What made things do what they did and what would happen if some part of it were missing and as a result I never owned a single toy that I wouldn't take apart. Sometimes I would spend my internal time wondering why my life was the way it was and what could be done to change it.

    At the age of 12 I had made the logical conclusion that my parents were much larger than the kids at my school (T) and thus made a conscious decision that if I were going to get my ass kicked by these kids I would certainly do what I could to make them look elsewhere the next day.

    From that day on I went down swinging. I would win some I would lose some but the next day was always better. I no longer cared if I said the wrong thing, got in the way, or attracted the unwanted attention of bullies. That’s when I came out of my shell (E). Although I was only moderately E at the time I know that’s where the seed was planted.

    At the age of 13 I defended myself the same way in my home. I had done such an excellent job not only did I get a reprieve that night as my parents received their stitches in the ER I never had to answer to anyone in that house ever again. A year later I had a repeat performance after I could no longer live with the guilt of listening to my sister continue to live with her abuse. That’s the last time they touched her while I was home.

    As a result I had no rules and no discipline. That's when the parties started. Everyone was invited and everyone showed up. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll at my house (full fledge E). But when I say everyone was invited I meant it. As long as you weren’t there to start trouble you could come it and do what you wanted. I always made it a point that nobody had the right to make anyone do anything they didn’t want to do. We had concerts, drinking games, and anything you could smoke, snort, pop, or shoot up but some of the people that showed up didn’t do any of those things. If my parents didn't like it, too bad it's my house! The only worry anyone at the parties would have to worry about were the cops that occasionally showed up, mostly for the noise.

    That's how I became an ENTP and not an INTP (I think).

  3. #63
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    I could be contemplative, but remember many times when I was glib or flamboyant.

    One in particular was in second grade. It was spring, but the first morning in class for a girl who had just moved in. She wasn't pleased by the change and was probably frightened, and spent the first hour red-faced and sobbing.

    In recollection, I thought nothing of her circumstances or the consolation she may have needed. She was cute and I wanted to impress her. My gambit was to lean back in my chair, nonchalant; and, grinning, make wisecracks about our class, referring to the girl in the third person as "Our new recruit," additionally noting that she shared the name of a character on Robotech, a syndicated cartoon at the time. The girl never reacted to me directly but continued to blubber, as I wasn't helping. A friend of mine at the time chided me -- "That's mean!" -- and some time afterward my teacher gently took me aside and urged me to be more considerate.

  4. #64
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    On twins and the MBTI and childhood, Merkw.

    If genetically identical twins are raised in the same environment, would you expect their MBTI to be identical?

    I'm asking this as I realised me and mine are one letter apart, same with Pink and hers.

    So back to the earlier point of nature vs nurture. If a child's type is fixed pretty much from childhood (the way Jennifer can type her children from young), that seems to be a case of nature then?

    How then genetically identical twins with different MBTIs?
    I, personally, would in fact believe that two identical twins would have the same (or at least highly similar) MBTI type. There have been several of such experiments conducted. One experiment involved separating two identical twins at birth, and placing them in different environments (different family values, different locations, etc.). The two twins were then compared at the age of 40 or so. Despite the fact that both had been raised in entirely different environments, their similarities were astonishing. They had the exact same interests, same career, chose spouses with the same characteristics, lived similar life styles, had similar political/religious views, and even had similar quirks and mannerisms. With this in mind, I think it's quite probable that two identical twins raised in the same environment would have the same MBTI type.

    It is also possible, on the other hand, though, that before maturing (sometime during early teens), each would grow weary of being so similar to each other. They would want to be individuals and thus, might "mold" themselves into different roles. Thus, I think it is also probable, depending on the circumstances, for twins to have the exact opposite MBTI types.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
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  5. #65
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Exactly. Because people need to distinguish in their own heads the two twins.

    There really, unfortunately, is no way ethically to figure out some of the things we'd love to figure out.

    (Then again, I'm reading "As Nature Made Him" right now, about the John/Joan case overseen by Dr. Money, which was a similar "perfect" experiment since John/Joan was an identical twin. Of course, in that situation, inborn gender concepts overrode completely the parents' and cultures' attempts to raise John as female. So, if personality is at least partially innate, it seems it could also be resistant to environmental influence as well?)
    Are you talking about Dr. Money with the Reimer twins in Winnipeg? Why would the book change the names? Gah--to think of a) an unauthorized laser circumcision and b) it going horribly wrong... <shudder>
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #66
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Neat, I didn't know that! (a well kept secret?)

    Where are you from, originally, and what nationality are your parents?

    Do you still recall or speak any French?
    My parents were both from Franco-American families. The ancestors were from France several generations ago. My parents grew up speaking French as the towns they lived in were heavily - almost exclusively - populated with French speaking people. My father was bi-lingual but my mother knew only French when they married. She still leaves out her "h"s where they belong, and adds them in front of vowels - where they don't belong. It's very quaint.

    I heard French spoken all around me as a child. My mother's family especially still speak French to each other when they're all together.

    I can speak it, but my vocabulary is limited to household and home types of things. I realized that this is because I was never required to speak French, since they are all bi-lingual. They speak to me in French, I answer them in English, and we understand each other! It's pretty cool, really.

    Sometimes I watch the Montreal station and I can only understand about 20% of what they're saying because they talk so fast. I did take 3 years of French in High School so I can write in French when I need to - with a dictionary.

    But now there's Babel fish!

  7. #67
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    I remember, even when I was very, very young, like my first memories, my stuffed toys had personalities.

  8. #68
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    I, personally, would in fact believe that two identical twins would have the same (or at least highly similar) MBTI type. There have been several of such experiments conducted. One experiment involved separating two identical twins at birth, and placing them in different environments (different family values, different locations, etc.). The two twins were then compared at the age of 40 or so. Despite the fact that both had been raised in entirely different environments, their similarities were astonishing. They had the exact same interests, same career, chose spouses with the same characteristics, lived similar life styles, had similar political/religious views, and even had similar quirks and mannerisms. With this in mind, I think it's quite probable that two identical twins raised in the same environment would have the same MBTI type.

    It is also possible, on the other hand, though, that before maturing (sometime during early teens), each would grow weary of being so similar to each other. They would want to be individuals and thus, might "mold" themselves into different roles. Thus, I think it is also probable, depending on the circumstances, for twins to have the exact opposite MBTI types.
    re the twins similar though raised apart. Which part of the cognitive processes / MBTI functions do you think are likely genetic vs environmental? I ask because a personality is likely an amalgation of nature and nuture then, the way this thread is going.

    I believe like Sam, the E/I is learnt, because I'm an I by nature, but my work does not allow that, and in school, having some E helps.

    I see where you're coming from, on the evolving of different characteristics to be different. But this is on the assumption that the child wants to be different vs wants to fit in? I'd assume in child and human psychology, belonging matters more than being different. It also happens in married couples, and in groups, doesn't it? After a while, they start behaving alike, thinking alike?

    So could we not take the other side of a coin, that sometimes parental/peer pressure would result in twins NOT developing as differently as they may have, given the external pressure to be "oh, look! Twins"?

    And this is a tangent, but how'd they manage to find enough twins to separate to make a conclusive study?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    I know that when one is a young child (roughly ages 3 - 6) usually only one's temperament (IxxP, ExxJ, IxxJ, ExxP) can be determined, and when older (7-12) only about three letters of one's type may be determined (IxTP, INxJ, ESxP, ENxP, ExFJ, ExTJ, ISxJ, IxFP,).

    Regardless of all this, were there any particular instances during your childhood during which, your MBTI type would seem very clear. As in, despite the fact that back then your type would not have been able to have been determined with certainty, are there any anecdotes that you have of you childhood that display distinct traits only related to your current MBTI type?
    I definitely displayed introversion. My mother would tell me that I normally sat in my room with the door closed and I was fairly quiet. Id be inclined to say I was more introverted as a child than I am now.

    I don't know about my entire type being apparent, but I was very "N". I used to write really abstract stories (my mother saved a few - I barely understand some of them!). I used to put myself into imaginary scenarios, daydreamed, had a really rich inner fantasy life, etc.

    I'm not sure when the FJ started to surface. I know I was always kind of a sensitive kid, but I'd have seemed cold compared to my INFP brother. I started caring about my image to others and the feelings of others moreso once I hit the teenage years. I've never been a "go with the flow" kind of person, even as a kid. I was always worrying and needed to plan out my next action.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Default I was a content child...

    Mom said that I was a good child and very easy to raise. As a youngster, of course, I did have a few friends, but not many. I felt rejected and isolated all throughout school mainly because I was never one to speak up or tried to follow anyone. I was very independent early on, and I enjoyed studying alone. There were times where I was very lonely, though, and I wished someone would understand me. I thankfully found a few understanding friends over the years who have remained my faithful friends to this day (mostly extroverts!)

    You might have recognized me; I was the quiet, friendly, little, girl outside who sat in the corner of the stairwell or sitting at the large, tangled, roots of the big, oak, tree absorbed in a good book while others were playing kickball. I was also the sensitive and studious, little, mouse who would sit alone in the library all day long when it was raining. In class, I always made good grades, so many thought I was teacher's pet. It was very rare, however, to get me to speak (I do well now), as I was the one who was staring out of the window forever daydreamed about everyone's life and my future. With my vivid imagination, I drew a lot and wrote elaborate stories. I imagined that I knew everyone in my year book, because I had imagined what all of their lives were like based on what I had witnessed of them. On the days that it was pretty, I was the happy, serene, girl swimming alone in the cold water or laying out in the hot sun alone or with a friend. As I got older, I got a lot of enjoyment playing games like solitaire, word puzzles, and trivia pursuit with friends; I enjoyed putting huge jigsaw puzzles together. I was also the kid who was always singing or humming to myself; singing provided me much joy and self expression. As the oldest daughter, I was my sibling's protector. I had to stare down and challenged many bigger kids who were messing with them (and me!). Thankfully, I never ever had to get into a physical fight. I guess my fierce stance for them was convincing.

    As a child, I was pretty much what you see here, except that I have grown stronger in my weaker areas. I am still a friendly bookworm, quiet, reserved, sensitive, independent, artistic and musically-driven, however I have become outspoken in the areas that I really care about.
    -Sandy
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