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Pi = Judger, Pe = Perceiver; why?

cascadeco

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I really do see the similarity between INFJ and INTJ. My ex-wife is ESFJ, and we had so much in common. I was surprised at how fundamentally different we were, underneath it all. Only by pushing things into the realm of disagreement did the rather stark differences become apparent at all. It was our differing motivations that caused us to drift apart: the apparent similarities had no binding power.

Right..I tend to agree with this. Motivations are so key.

Aphrodite said:
You know, I think just like with other things, it's the action. It's the expression. But the main variable in that is on a consistent basis. Because people won't continue the innate action or behavior unless it's what's comfortable for them. They will revert eventually into the comfortable way of being. So, it's what someone does over time, consistently, I think. Not just what one wants to be or wants to do.

Yes, I agree consistency can say a lot, and generally people aren't going to consistently perform the same action/behavior unless it's comfortable for them.

But, that said, the exact same action might be equally comfortable between an INTJ and an INFJ, or INTJ and ESFJ (like uumlau says), but the *reasons* that they're doing it are utterly different.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I think this might be the core of the disagreement.

You see, for example, INTJs behaving with what you regard as "Fe" mannerisms. Therefore, that is Fe.

I do not deny that I "act Fe" at times. I was raised to be very polite, to be courteous.

But there is a key difference between those whose types have Fe as their strongest "F" function and those who have Fi as their strongest "F" function, and it's how they process the feelings in the first place. The processing can both lead to similar conclusions and different conclusions. It is by reviewing the different conclusions that one can begin to separate out the actions from the motivations, and discover that the underlying motivations are different.


I understand. I respect that you know what functions you use. :) If you say you use Fi, I'll try and believe you, although I don't feel it as much as Fe. And I know Fi when I feel it; so asking me to believe an entp, for example, uses Fe more than Fi is quite a stretch for me.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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But, that said, the exact same action might be equally comfortable between an INTJ and an INFJ, or INTJ and ESFJ (like uumlau says), but the *reasons* that they're doing it are utterly different.

What action would be comfortable between an INFJ and an INTJ?
 

cascadeco

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What action would be comfortable between an INFJ and an INTJ?

An INTJ and an INFJ could be equally comfortable performing the same action. I didn't have a specific in mind....I think it could apply to pretty much anything, across all personality types.

All types can and do perform the same actions at times, just for highly different reasons/motivations.
 

uumlau

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I understand. I respect that you know what functions you use. :) If you say you use Fi, I'll try and believe you, although I don't feel it as much as Fe. And I know Fi when I feel it; so asking me to believe an entp, for example, uses Fe more than Fi is quite a stretch for me.

I very much feel the Fe from an ENTP, especially when an argument heats up. The same things that irk the strong Fi-users from ENTPs also irk me for very similar reasons. Similarly, I can feel the Fi from INTJs and INFPs alike, the main difference being that the INTJ has the iron Te control, and the INFP hides with extra shyness. ENFPs seem to outwardly show exactly what I feel inside. Even as they can be insanely random with their NeFi, I can follow that randomness effortlessly.

From xNFJs I get this sense of dignity that engenders nothing but respect and admiration from me. But I've noticed that I can occasionally mistake INFJ for INTJ and vice versa, for the very reasons that you cite. I attribute it, however, to "Te looks a lot like Fe until you dig deeper" (motivations), and not "Fe" is the real INTJ tertiary.

I think we'll get to the bottom of this, eventually. It'll just take time and patience.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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An INTJ and an INFJ could be equally comfortable performing the same action. I didn't have a specific in mind....I think it could apply to pretty much anything, across all personality types.

All types can and do perform the same actions at times, just for highly different reasons/motivations.

Well, looking at actions or motivations on a case-by-case basis would be hard to identify a person's preferences. I think it's only by watching someone's behavior over a period of time, that it becomes evident what their preferences are.

It's like with someone who 'wants' to be organized but just isn't. They might get a planner, write in it, tell others about how they are organizing their life, and appear more organized for a while; but then if they stop looking at their planner, start winging things and being spontaneous, and get unorganized again, no matter that they wanted to be organized, they just aren't for whatever reason; it's not in their nature.

Or another example is being introverted/extraverted. If an introvert *wants* to be more extraverted he might direct his energy outside himself to objects for a while. His intent is to be more extraverted and object-oriented, and it will work for a while, but he will eventually revert back into his normal introverted subjective nature. He might still want to be extraverted inside, or be motivated by objective ideals, but if he stays introverted as his natural state, he is an introvert.

I can see that a neurotic person could get caught between these ideals, which might be why going with a person's intent seems inherently right; because a person might, out of shyness or a poor ego state, or any other reasons, not be able to manifest his or her ideal or natural state. This could indeed happen, but it would be more rare than that a person just expresses their normal way of being through actions.

I very much feel the Fe from an ENTP, especially when an argument heats up. The same things that irk the strong Fi-users from ENTPs also irk me for very similar reasons. Similarly, I can feel the Fi from INTJs and INFPs alike, the main difference being that the INTJ has the iron Te control, and the INFP hides with extra shyness. ENFPs seem to outwardly show exactly what I feel inside. Even as they can be insanely random with their NeFi, I can follow that randomness effortlessly.

From xNFJs I get this sense of dignity that engenders nothing but respect and admiration from me. But I've noticed that I can occasionally mistake INFJ for INTJ and vice versa, for the very reasons that you cite. I attribute it, however, to "Te looks a lot like Fe until you dig deeper" (motivations), and not "Fe" is the real INTJ tertiary.

I think we'll get to the bottom of this, eventually. It'll just take time and patience.


Well, I see something different. I will continue to study and watch. :)
 

cascadeco

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Well, I see something different. I will continue to study and watch. :)

Really? Interesting. I notice myself understanding, almost effortlessly, those who have TiFe. Those who are FiTe (FP's) are ones that I don't immediately relate to, and often scratch my head over...but NTJ's I relate to relatively easily (I associate this with shared Ni).

I gather you see yourself utilizing Te moreso than Ti, given your theory? I relate quite a lot to descriptions of Ti (moreso than Te). But, I've also always thought everyone has the ability to utilize all 8 functions.

Re. behaviors over the longterm - I do agree with you, you can't maintain a certain behavior that is uncomfortable for you over the longterm. But I still think we're speaking of slightly different things. I'm referring to a given action - any little thing. Say, for example, rock-climbing. I rock-climb, and approach rock-climbing, in a vastly different manner than an ESFP dude does. Same action: An outsider observing both of us wouldn't know anything about inner reasons or how we approach all of it from a safety perspective. Etc. Even the hand-clapping thing all of you were talking about. To say it's 'uncomfortable' for any of the types, across the board, would be a gross generalization. It's just as has been illustrated by people already (including yourself), people clap for different reasons - different motivations. So taking an isolated little behavior and attributing an isolated cognitive function to a particular behavior is going a bit far imo, because cognitive functions do not equate to behaviors. I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just adding my thought. I think combinations of cognitive functions can result in a behavior, but you can have an entirely different set of cognitive functions that would result in the same *behavior* -- same net effect. You can arrive at the same behavior through a variety of different means (functions/motivations/what have you).
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Really? Interesting. I notice myself understanding, almost effortlessly, those who have Ti, and those who are FiTe are ones that I don't immediately relate to.


I gather you see yourself utilizing Te moreso than Ti, given your theory? I relate quite a lot to descriptions of Ti, but also to elements of Te. But, I've also always thought everyone has the ability to utilize all 8 functions.

Oh yeah, definitely we use all 8 I think too. It's just that those first three are the main ones. As we go through life, the others get stronger so this stuff become less and less important, imo, unless someone manifests a neurosis or something like that.

As for me, I use Ni/Fe/Te on a daily basis to manage my life and be in the world. But I have a large family, so my Te is very necessary. When I use Ti I am thinking about concepts or learning something new, as I have been lately. As an introverted function, it is highly introverting however, and that could become skewing over time for an introvert; just too much introversion. Ti is great, it's just that using it over an extraverted function, I can see that it makes me more introverted overall, much more. That might be the key as to why some are more introverted or extraverted; the orientation of the tertiary.

I just think the aux and tert, each working in cohort with the dom (and aligned opposite), provides the best balance for folks over time. But they all have their strengths obviously.

Re. behaviors over the longterm - I do agree with you, you can't maintain a certain behavior that is uncomfortable for you over the longterm. But I still think we're speaking of slightly different things. I'm referring to a given action - any little thing. Say, for example, rock-climbing. I rock-climb, and approach rock-climbing, in a vastly different manner than an ESFP dude does. Same action: An outsider observing both of us wouldn't know anything about inner reasons or how we approach all of it from a safety perspective. Etc.

But rock-climbing is an activity that exists outside of cognitive functions.

To say that you decided you didn't want to rock climb at the last minute but didn't want to let the group down that was depending on you, would be more Fe.

To not go anyway, is more Fi.

Over times these Fe and Fi actions add up to give a feel for a person's overall function attitude. If we go by our inner feelings, and not the outer feelings, it only gives us part of the picture; we might not want to go rock climbing but if we are driven to do it, that is Fe, and that is the stronger feeling. People do what they want and need to do in the end, unless they are being coerced or controlled for some reason, and then they will still fight it, and won't be able to suppress that innate drive.
 

PeaceBaby

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Over times these Fe and Fi actions add up to give a feel for a person's overall function attitude. If we go by our inner feelings, and not the outer feelings, it only gives us part of the picture; we might not want to go rock climbing but if we are driven to do it, that is Fe, and that is the stronger feeling. People do what they want and need to do in the end, unless they are being coerced or controlled for some reason, and then they will still fight it.

I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
 

Poki

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To all the non-discriminatory white, male, NTs: Thank you for your highly esteemed behavior to non white male NTs. Unfortunately, discriminatory NT behavior is a real phenomenon on Type C, and I suspect irl as well. I'm just not usually privy to it because I'm not in white male NT circles much.


To Poki: The only thing I'm saying that's really different is that normal functioning involves oppositely orienting the tertiary to the dominant. This would be normal daily positive encounters with others and the world. I'm not sure I like the 'loop' terminology, but okay, I've been stuck in a loop before. A loop for me exists when no answer can be found and you keep going round and round. A loop might be the beginning of a neurosis, such that so long as the loop keeps going round, you're sort-of stagnated in a negative space, instead of the normal positive one. Finally, as the dominant demands solutions the unconscious functions cannot provide, it exerts pressure on the tertiary especially (because it is weaker than the auxiliary, although the auxiliary could be coerced as well, as we see sometimes in extreme neurosis or psychosis) and bends it into a subjective (or objective for extraverts) orientation, ending the 'loop' and beginning the extreme orientation which usually manifests in some outcome, be it additional insight or some newly garnered knowledge, although this will come at a cost to the subject's psyche if this state is sustained.

So, in effect, you have the exteme behavior which can only be obtained by extreme methods, such as you would have with an extreme orientation. Yet extreme behavior can elicit exciting results as well, tho at a cost to the host. It's the whole ying/yang thing if you will. Suppress part of your psyche, and it will repress and manifest somewhere else. The more you suppress, the stronger the underlying tempation will be.

So does this mean that normal functioning for an INTP is to orient S outward and to Se? Can you explain how this presents itself?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...

Well, you probably do. I use Fi a lot now. Maybe even more than Fe at this point. That's why this stuff isn't as much fun once you start using more functions well. :huh:


So does this mean that normal functioning for an INTP is to orient S outward and to Se? Can you explain how this presents itself?

Well, I don't know many, but I think they like to watch people. They would be using a tertiary function, so it would be weak-ish and not very developed, until they got older, so age matters with the Se of an INTP. But it's the Ti/Se blend that makes them be able to really make things work. And it the Ti/Ne blend that makes them make ideas work, and fit ideas together to form a myriad of thoughts and possibilities. It's when they run out of Se motivation for some reason that the 'mad scientist' Ti/Si looping or eventual adhesion occurs, and when they walk around not seeing things or with their head in the clouds. But I don't think that's their most balanced state. Same goes for ISTP. They can be very Ti/Se and Ti/Ne, very intuitive as they age, more so than using Ti/Ni unless they introvert too much for some reason, resulting in paranoid delusions.


I don't know about you, but I'm going to run and hide now before Z gets back............:wubbie:
 

PeaceBaby

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Well, you probably do. I use Fi a lot now. Maybe even more than Fe at this point. That's why this stuff isn't as much fun once you start using more functions well. :huh:

The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.

I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.

Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
 

simulatedworld

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Hint: To Poki. White male NTs tend to be discriminatory to anyone not white, male, and NT. ;)

I hope this is a bad trolling attempt...for your sake.

You're being criticized because your ideas have problems, not because you're non-male or non-NT. Don't kid yourself.


You are trolling again. Why don't you say something substantive or nothing at all? hmm?

It's hysterical that you're claiming discrimination, of all things. You're so desperate to validate your ideas that you have to blame the negative response they get on discrimination? Are you fucking kidding me?

And it's doubly hysterical that you'd chide Jaguar for "not saying anything substantive", after offering up such a steaming pile of shit for your most recent argument...good lord.

Did you ever consider that maybe you're getting a negative response because you're wrong, and not because white NT males all have a secret conspiracy to invalidate your thoughts? Talk about Ni conspiracy theory babble! You're off the rails. :doh:
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.

I totally agree that it is hard to define and delineate where preferences change orientations. That is why I personally wanted to keep definitions loose--like to two words even, because we don't live in a vacuum and functions simply work together, especially as one gains life experience. But I think there is something to be said for introverting or extraverting a preference within the same person. A person usually uses one orientation over another, and if that person changed their orientation of that particular function, it's going to make a marked difference in either their intuiting, sensing, thinking, or feeling.

Jung has good definitions (except for the Fe problem I've already spoken about). If a person prefers Te, then his will objectively look to facts and data in the world and those will become paramount for his thinking. He is a master of data collection and all that entails; organizing, efficiently using, applying, etc. Ti subjectifies thinking into specific inner workings of things or ideas; it takes an idea or object and joins it with Ne or Se to either make something work, or to flesh out possibilities. It figures out the essence of something on its own. These are really very different ways of being, just like Fi and Fe are different ways of being.

I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.

Well, it is difficult when speaking about cognitive functions to have a similar perspective, because we tend to want to look at the function in question as if it were under a microscope; to identify its particular qualities, try to define it, try to understand where it ends and its sister function begins. So, it is a bit ridiculous to use real world examples to explain it, although we lapse into that in our attempt to understand it. Its real workings are so elusive that in looking so closely at it and studying it, it's almost like we destroy it. Yet a certain amount of dissection is necessary for educational purposes.

Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.

I hear you. It gets a bit tiring arguing about such vague concepts. We know so little about how the mind works, that I think it's comforting to find a system that actually seems to have some merit in that regard.

I just got my Gifts Differing book by Isabel Meyers and I like it a lot more than the Thompson book. I owe Isabel Meyers an apology. It was her mother who actually created the J/P dichotomy before she read Jung's work in the early part of the last century. But when she saw his work, she became excited because his theory went further than hers to explain how people are in the world. They went on to add the J/P dichotomy, believing that it really identified a different aspect, or character trait, of how people behave--our typical judging/perceiving lingo pretty much, as in 'leaving things open' or 'having things settled,' etc. However, in this book she doesn't even talk about the tertiary function that I've seen, and I've skimmed the whole book. So, she basically addresses the types by their dominant and auxiliary only, along with the J/P dichotomy.

So, I'm not sure who identified the tertiary as how it is, or why. Maybe it was the MBTI foundation, or maybe it was another theorist. Sure, none of this really matters. We could pursue more important thoughts like how does our environment affect our ego development. How much are we affected by our genetics. Is there anything else about our personality that can identify behavior patterns. If so, what are they. And so on. But we're on a typology forum so it's inevitable that typology freaks are going to hash through this stuff, and since it regards one's personality, it's, well, personal to a certain degree; kinda hard to talk about the orientation of the tertiary function without looking at the manifestations of a person's perceived behavior.
 

simulatedworld

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The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.

I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.

Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.

Great post, especially bolded parts!

'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
 

Jaguar

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'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...

Hahahahaha!
 

Zarathustra

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Great post, especially bolded parts!

'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...

Hahahahaha!

Seriously. :doh:

I don't have time (yet) to tear this theory apart, but that was one of the most ridiculous comments I've seen on typeC. And that's saying something...

Aphrodite: your ethos took a major hit with that one...
 
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