# Thread: Pi = Judger, Pe = Perceiver; why?

1. OK, so to get the thread back to its original purpose:

So, given all this discussion, do you not find it the slightest bit odd that Ni and Si are in the dom or aux of all Judgers.

I mean, I understand that it's just like that according to the framework, but, assuming that the framework is actually representative of reality (I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying let's assume), then it would seem that Ni and Si are just as correlated to whether one is a Judger as having Te or Fe as one's dom or aux.

Assuming the framework is representationally true, do you think it's merely a case of correlation but not causation that Ni and Si are 100% correlated with Jness, or do you think the underlying relationship is just as causal as the Fe and Te correlation?

Isn't it at least interesting that all NJs have Ni, and all SJs have Si?

2. Originally Posted by uumlau
There is no one so close-minded as someone who believes that oneself is open-minded.
Except for those who actually are open-minded...

3. Originally Posted by Zarathustra
OK, so to get the thread back to its original purpose:

So, given all this discussion, do you not find it the slightest bit odd that Ni and Si are in the dom or aux of all Judgers.

I mean, I understand that it's just like that according to the framework, but, assuming that the framework is actually representative of reality (I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying let's assume), then it would seem that Ni and Si are just as correlated to whether one is a Judger as having Te or Fe as one's dom or aux.

Assuming the framework is representationally true, do you think it's merely a case of correlation but not causation that Ni and Si are 100% correlated with Jness, or do you think the underlying relationship is just as causal as the Fe and Te correlation?

Isn't it at least interesting that all NJs have Ni, and all SJs have Si?
I'm sorry, Z, but this sounds like, "isn't it the least bit interesting that an antiparticle has the opposite charge of its corresponding particle?" It's definitional.

It is part of the whole "Ji goes with Pe and Je goes with Pi" architecture of MBTI. It's like being amazed that not only does one plus one equal 2, but 2 minus one equals one!

Unless there's some core empirical kind of observation that you'd like to make that might reach new conclusions, I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at.

4. Man, I made a post on this thread and it was here, but then the forum went down again, and my post disappeared. Not cool...

5. But here's what I said, more or less:

Z, I'm sure you understand how the labeling system works from a definitive standpoint. You seem to be just looking for some kind of conceptual explanation for why the labeling system has come to be labeled the way it is labeled, or why the labeling system is the way it is, so to speak.

Both judgers and perceivers utilize some form of judgment and some form of perception.

Judgers internalize the information that they gather externally to fit some kind of impersonal construct, and the construct itself has no judgments attached to it (Pi). However, judgers use this construct made from information in the external environment to make judgments of value/worth (Je). Without the construct, no reasonable judgments about reality could be made, but since the construct aids in judgment about reality, Pi-ers are labeled as judgers.

For judgers, judgment is expressed outwardly and founded and aided behind the scenes by perception.

Perceivers, on the other hand, react more immediately to the information they gather externally (Pe). What allows them to do that is the existence of a priorly formed internal construct based on values that are derived internally according to the self (Ji). Without this construct, Pe-ers would have no long-established structure to aid them in their on-the-fly reactions to their environment. Since Ji serves to aid in perception, Pe/Ji-ers are called perceivers.

For perceivers, perception is expressed outwardly and founded and aided behind the scenes by judgment.

Both Ps and Js have perceiving and judging functions. One is just extroverted while the other introverted, and the one that is extroverted is the one that contributes most to their outward personality that's observable by others, so we label them according to the one that's extroverted.

I'm not really sure where else you want to go with this thread, but if you're wondering why Je-ers can't also be Pe-ers (why they must be excluslively judgers) and why Ji-ers can't also be Pi-ers (why they must be exclusively perceivers), I'd say it's due to a cognitive inconsistency between Pi/Ji and Pe/Je that just doesn't compute well.

It doesn't make any sense for someone to simultaneously see the environment as something to empirically evaluate before garnering an impression (Je) while also responding immediately to it, according to momentary sense impressions, before understanding it empirically (Pe). Likewise, it doesn't make sense to build an internal construct that's derived subjectively (Ji) while also building an internal construct that's made from external information (Pi).

So according to this logic, the only way for one to have both a perceiving and judging function juxtaposed in the primary two functions, one would need Je/Pi or Pe/Ji.

6. Originally Posted by teslashock
So according to this logic, the only way for one to have both a perceiving and judging function juxtaposed in the primary two functions, one would need Je/Pi or Pe/Ji.
Good post.

How would you address people talking about NiFi or NeTe or any such variation? Are you saying that if Ni is involved, then it has to use Te or Fe, no exceptions?

7. Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Maybe this is known to some of you, but I'm sure it's not known to the lot of you...

I was kicking some thoughts around in my head the other day, and I realized that all NJs (INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ) are either Ni doms or Ni auxs.

At the same time, all NPs (INTP, ENTP, INFP, ENFP) are Ne doms or Ne auxs.

Then I realized that something similar holds true for Ss.

All SJs (ISTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ) are Si doms or auxs, and all SPs (ESFP, ISTP, ESTP, ISFP) are Se doms or auxs.

Accordingly, all Pi doms or auxs are Judgers, and all Pe doms or auxs are Perceivers.

So, my question to you is: what is it about having Pi (Ni,Si) as your dom or aux that makes one a Judger, and what is it about Pe (Ne,Se) as your dom or aux that makes one a Perceiver?

Havnt read anything else, but my current thoughts is that Ji overlays perceptions based on past/present/future to create a course to follow. So they are decision makers and planners which somehow got tied to judging possibly because they make choices and that can be externally seen as judging a situation.

Pe are percievers but also experiencers. They like to throw themselves in things and just do things. Experience requires one to percieve, but if one is focused on the going they dont process what they percieve unless they hit downtime. So while Pe is a perceptive it doesnt mean they analyze. This analysis happens during down time so if they are in a constant go-go-go mode they limit analyzing things internally and rely more on external analysis which is why I think that Pe has a tertiary Je.

Just thoughts.

8. Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Oh, and before anyone gets there, I suppose I should mention that if Pi is your dom or aux, then Je is inherently your aux or dom.

And for Pe doms and auxs the same holds true with regards to Ji.

The correlation for these phenomena is 100%; the question is, what is the cause?
You're getting it right here, but I think you're missing a key idea, which is that Pi and Pe have absolutely NOTHING to do with judging. Every type has a perceptive function and a judging function. Your question is really just definitive; all you're asking is how the last letter in MBTI works. If you're some combination of Pi and Je in primary/secondary position, you're going to come out J, because the last letter determines which is extroverted. It's not that there's a cause per se, it's just how Isabelle Myers and Katherine Briggs designed their framework.

On the other hand, if you're asking why the judging functions get paired with a perceptive function of the opposite attitude (as in 'why not Pi and Ji?), and vise versa, that's a very interesting caveat to the system. As far as I'm concerned, and as my experience tells me, this is because it's too unnatural and unbalanced. All healthy people have a buzzing inner world that no one else sees, and a thriving external consciousness that deals with the environment and those others occupying its space. You have to have both to be psychologically well balanced. If your first two functions are some Pi and some Ji, you're going to have a very difficult time interacting with or even comprehending the world around you and the other people in your life because there's too much unbalanced introversion.

9. Originally Posted by Zarathustra
Maybe this is known to some of you, but I'm sure it's not known to the lot of you...

I was kicking some thoughts around in my head the other day, and I realized that all NJs (INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ) are either Ni doms or Ni auxs.

At the same time, all NPs (INTP, ENTP, INFP, ENFP) are Ne doms or Ne auxs.

Then I realized that something similar holds true for Ss.

All SJs (ISTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ) are Si doms or auxs, and all SPs (ESFP, ISTP, ESTP, ISFP) are Se doms or auxs.

Accordingly, all Pi doms or auxs are Judgers, and all Pe doms or auxs are Perceivers.

So, my question to you is: what is it about having Pi (Ni,Si) as your dom or aux that makes one a Judger, and what is it about Pe (Ne,Se) as your dom or aux that makes one a Perceiver?

You just realized this?

In addition, all TPs are Ti dom/aux, TJs are Te dom/aux, FPs are Fi dom/aux and FJs are Fe dom/aux.

Also, TPs are Fe tert/inf, TJs are Fi tert/inf, FPs are Te tert/inf, FJs are Ti tert/inf, NPs are Si tert/inf, NJs are Se tert/inf, SPs are Ni tert/inf, and SJs are Ne tert/inf.

This is the kind of structural pattern NeTi thinks about all the time!

Anyway, to answer your question, the terms "Perceiver" and "Judger" in MBTI refer to one's preferred way of dealing with the external world. So while you may actually be dominant in Pi, you are a "Judger" in MBTI terms if you point the Judging attitude outward and use it to deal with external issues.

Originally Posted by uumlau
How would you address people talking about NiFi or NeTe or any such variation? Are you saying that if Ni is involved, then it has to use Te or Fe, no exceptions?
NiFi is usually described as an INTJ with poor command of Te...so he turns to tertiary Fi for judgment because it's more comfortable, being oriented in the same direction as the dominant. Poor command of aux seems to correlate with extreme introversion/extroversion and the associated problems.

Ne+Te is an ENFP with ineffective Fi leading to difficulty with subjective self-reflection, etc.

Originally Posted by uumlau
I'm sorry, Z, but this sounds like, "isn't it the least bit interesting that an antiparticle has the opposite charge of its corresponding particle?" It's definitional.

It is part of the whole "Ji goes with Pe and Je goes with Pi" architecture of MBTI. It's like being amazed that not only does one plus one equal 2, but 2 minus one equals one!

Unless there's some core empirical kind of observation that you'd like to make that might reach new conclusions, I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at.
+a lot

I am really tired of people asking for proof that a made up labeling system's method is "proven."

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