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  1. #331
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I have news for you, there are some Jungians who think the Dom/Aux have the same attitude. Yeah, you read that right.
    So while some are having pissing matches about the Tert's attitude, there are people who don't even think the Dom/Aux is carved in stone.
    Just because a single theory is more well-known than others, doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Just because a single theory is used more than others, doesn't mean it's accurate either.
    I've been wondering lately about the overall foundations of the theory, how consistently it applies, and would like to see more open minded dialogue on different perspectives. There seems to be a bit of group think on the forum which I noticed the first week or two after joining but got used to it. It is worth understanding the alternative or dissenting views and I'm not sure that a competition to prove who is right is the best way to dialogue on these matters.

    Jaguar - for example, I'm interested in what you're saying here. Do you have links to more information?

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  2. #332
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So? A lot of SJs are interested in American football. That doesn't make them any good at it.
    And claiming to be ENTP doesn't make you good at anything either.
    That includes seeing the big picture.

    I don't think shit is carved in stone. I think there are widely accepted interpretations which can be used in argumentation to further develop my personal model...of course, further developing or otherwise restructuring my model is, I understand, is dishonest and lazy in Te+Fi land.
    There you go again - MY MODEL. As if there is only one. More rigidity.

    I know you understand what I mean; you just refuse to grant any Ne-oriented idea potential validity, and believe TeNi to be an objectively superior approach. Neither of us is going to bend on this; it's an immutable difference in perspectives, just let it go already.
    Ne? Son, yours is dead.

    For as long as I have known you, you have put up walls to exclude theoretical possibilities.
    Because in that head of yours, you don't think it's "logically consistent."
    Welcome to the real world, pal. People are not logically consistent.
    I, as opposed to you, am wide open to all possibilities regarding the human psyche.
    I don't think there is just one model.

    It's like you just deliberately refuse to engage in Ne-oriented thought.
    Look in the mirror and say that. Then you will be accurate.

  3. #333
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And claiming to be ENTP doesn't make you good at anything either.
    That includes seeing the big picture.
    translation: Ne is stupid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    There you go again - MY MODEL. As if there is only one. More rigidity.
    translation: Ti is stupid



    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Ne? Son, yours is dead.

    For as long as I have known you, you have put up walls to exclude theoretical possibilities.
    Because in that head of yours, you don't think it's "logically consistent."
    Welcome to the real world, pal. People are not logically consistent.
    I, as opposed to you, am wide open to all possibilities regarding the human psyche.
    I don't think there is just one model.
    translation: Ti is really, really stupid


    "My model" = the collection of information I have thus far. It's a dynamic model that changes with new information. It includes information from different existing models along with my own experiences.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Look in the mirror and say that. Then you will be accurate.
    ......


    I don't suppose this sounds familiar to you?


    The peculiar disconnect that nearly always happens between NTJs and NTPs. From the NTJ's standpoint: "He seems awfully attached to his model, as if it's the only possible one. There are so many possibilities he hasn't ruled out. His argumentation is simply unfair: he is choosing observations to stack the deck to favor his interpretation over all others. He seems oblivious to the complexity of the subject. He does not seem to know what he's doing."

    From the NTP's standpoint: "I'm trying to point things out and draw distinctions in order to define a vocabulary that carves out some aspect of the subject matter. That would be forward progress. But he refuses to look. He keeps translating everything I say into some moronic vocabulary that he's already familiar with, where what I'm saying is a trivial goof. He seems completely stuck in his box."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    For the record, Sim, you have no way of knowing what functions poki has developed, and that includes his Tert.
    True.

    But that doesn't mean he's not right.

    No one said anyone's certain about any of this stuff.

    And, honestly, I've seen poki post a lot, and what Sim said certainly seemed accurate to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Your constant reference to people's function orders as rigid absolutes serves no purpose, but to stymie personal growth and understanding.
    I've thought this about Sim at times too; but if you read some of the stuff earlier in this thread (that he wrote yesterday, I think), you'll see that he's more open to exceptions than one might, at first glance, believe.

    Furthermore, while I'm all about opening things up to other perspectives, there's also something refreshing about Sim's ability to provide the rational skeleton around which reality seems to be distributed.

    He's pretty good at it, and just cuz you don't like the idea of perspectives being excessively closed off in this manner (which, interestingly enough, pertains to one of the original points of this whole discussion, since you're supposedly a J and he's supposedly a P, and, according to most comments in that discussion earlier, Js are supposedly the ones who want to close things off and Ps are supposedly the ones who want to open them up...), that doesn't mean he's not good at pointing to that underlying skeleton around which reality dances much of the time (although, perhaps he does so more often than appropriate [and, obviously, he does so more often than you would like]).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I have news for you, there are some Jungians who think the Dom/Aux have the same attitude. Yeah, you read that right.
    So while some are having pissing matches about the Tert's attitude, there are people who don't even think the Dom/Aux is carved in stone.
    Just because a single theory is more well-known than others, doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Just because a single theory is used more than others, doesn't mean it's accurate either.
    Yeah, well, just cuz there's a lot of alternative theories, it doesn't make them true, nor the "mainstream" one false, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And as far as your other comment about ENTPs having the same weaknesses,
    what is a weakness of yours could be a weakness of any human being.
    Yeah, but it could also be a weakness that ENTPs are prone to.

    In fact, it could be both at the same time.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The frustrating part is I know you guys get it on a deep level, especially in terms of the abstract concepts (probably even better than we do), but you refuse to define anything clearly before it's become empirically verified--simultaneously a strength and a weakness. It's like you guys understand what we're getting at but won't grant our models validity until shown Te-quality proof, which is sometimes advantageous (when the NTP model turns out to be wrong) and sometimes not (when NTP was quicker than you to make up an articulable explanation and start trying, and happened to get it right.)

    ...

    NTJs always seem to skip a lot of the potentially interesting information in their search for that which can be externally applied--hence your frustration with NeTi's spider web thinking.
    I defend your thinking against Jaguar, and then you have to go writing things like these...



    It's a wicked web we weave...

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    To be using Ne+Ti, you would need to really understand the value in understanding one precise set of conditions in as much total clarity as possible with no regard for the external applicability of that understanding, for no reason other than that the relationships that make up its internal structure are aesthetically appealing.
    Well, to be honest, I'm more interested in how I use Ni and Ti together (I would say that I engage in highly advanced spiritual thinking that is likely a combination of Ni and Ti, not Ni and Te).

    I'm also potentially interested, although less so, in how I might use Ne and Te together (although I think it would be hard for me to distinguish between Ne+Te and Se+Te [I think I might use one of these two combinations when I drink excessively, not quite sure which]).

    I haven't really put much thought into using Ne and Ti together.

    Given all of the above, that's why my question was about Pi and Ji and Pe and Je functions working in tandem, even in cases in which one of the two is a shadow function.

    (Btw, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said that the two shadow functions that I believe I use are relatively close in strength to my tertiary, but I'm not sure... I was referring to Ne and Ti being of relatively equal strength/maturity as my Fi... it seemed like you might have thought I was referring to my tertiary shadow function...?)

  6. #336
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    translation: stupid


  7. #337
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    So, what can you recommend?

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  8. #338
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I defend your thinking against Jaguar, and then you have to go writing things like these...



    It's a wicked web we weave...
    You understand that it's not about allegiance right? For sim especially not, but for you especially so it seems. There's nothing I read in that that constitutes a personal attack.

    You're committing the logical fallacy of the false dilemma. ("If you are not with us, you are against us.") And as subject matter, typology / MBTI cannot tolerate "black and white thinking" either. So you have to let yourself be comfortable with a lot of grey; a lot of opposing ideas.

    sim has his construct and he defends it vociferously (and rather well, I might add); but he's not as close-minded as Jag makes him out to be. Jaggy just likes to poke him with a stick on a regular basis to try to ensure he stays humble and honest.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #339
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I defend your thinking against Jaguar, and then you have to go writing things like these...



    It's a wicked web we weave...
    If I've perceived the motivation for this behavior incorrectly, it would be more helpful for you to explain why that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, to be honest, I'm more interested in how I use Ni and Ti together (I would say that I engage in highly advanced spiritual thinking that is likely a combination of Ni and Ti, not Ni and Te).

    I'm also potentially interested, although less so, in how I might use Ne and Te together (although I think it would be hard for me to distinguish between Ne+Te and Se+Te [I think I might use one of these two combinations when I drink excessively, not quite sure which]).

    I haven't really put much thought into using Ne and Ti together.

    Given all of the above, that's why my question was about Pi and Ji and Pe and Je functions working in tandem, even in cases in which one of the two is a shadow function.
    I don't know, exactly. I guess I would expect the non-shadow function to get a lot more emphasis. What do you think Ni+Ti or Ne+Te together looks like when developed well? And can these two work well together without a comparably strong balancing influence from a function of opposite orientation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    (Btw, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said that the two shadow functions that I believe I use are relatively close in strength to my tertiary, but I'm not sure... I was referring to Ne and Ti being of relatively equal strength/maturity as my Fi... it seemed like you might have thought I was referring to my tertiary shadow function...?)
    Oh, I see. I am not really sure how the strengths of shadow functions compare to the tertiary/inferior. I suspect that we tend to unconsciously vent negativity via the tertiary and inferior, but that we can build some sort of comparatively small competence in the shadow functions through deliberate training and repetition. Most people don't force themselves into this sort of situation though, because it's uncomfortable. I think use of the tert/inf is probably more comfortable than any shadow because that seems to be most people's preferred method of venting frustration--it comes out without any real effort, even if frequently in a negative way. The shadows seem to require a much deliberate shift of focus.

    I doubt that we can sustain use of shadow functions for very long periods of time.

    SolitaryWalker argues that the shadows of the tertiary and inferior are actually stronger and more natural than the tertiary and inferior themselves. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it does support your idea that you could use Ne/Ti at least as competently as Fi.

    I think it's really hard to distinguish the use of the tert/inf shadows from the primary functions figuring out how to expand their skill sets, though. I don't have a complete answer for the dynamics of shadow functions at this time. You may be right.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    So, what can you recommend?
    Jaguar's advice is simple: Don't be an NTP.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #340
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    So, what can you recommend?
    I'll have you read this, for now.
    It will get you thinking.

    http://www.hpsys.com/PDFs/The%20Evol...udes2_2003.pdf

    Frankly, a person's response to reading all of that should be revealing in and of itself.

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