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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    Is there a parallel between this thread and the NT/NF death spiral?

    NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki
    Not really.

    That analysis is a little crude, too, cuz it assumes the NT isn't good with his tertiary/inferior F function...

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's skipping the auxiliary to work on the tertiary that results in an unbalanced dom+tert loop, not use of the tertiary itself (which is not inherently unhealthy.)
    Could you also explain more clearly the characteristics and qualities of this "loop".

    I understand what you mean intuitively, but I'd like to see some of that Ti draw it out a little more clearly.


  3. #323
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't have a problem with Sensors; I just think it's funny when someone with tertiary/inferior Ni lectures INTJs about "seeing the big picture"...He implied that the reason we're not understanding him is that he's "zooming out to the big picture" but the rest of us aren't...which I find unlikely.
    It might be "funny" or "unlikely" to a dilettante like yourself, but it's not funny to those more experienced like Linda Berens and Judy Robb.
    And don't weasel out of it by claiming only Tert Ni. We both know you mean any SP.

    Big Picture - Many Artisans-SPs are interested in the big picture.

    Full article here:
    How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates

    For the record, Sim, you have no way of knowing what functions poki has developed, and that includes his Tert.
    Your constant reference to people's function orders as rigid absolutes serves no purpose, but to stymie personal growth and understanding.

    I have news for you, there are some Jungians who think the Dom/Aux have the same attitude. Yeah, you read that right.
    So while some are having pissing matches about the Tert's attitude, there are people who don't even think the Dom/Aux is carved in stone.
    Just because a single theory is more well-known than others, doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Just because a single theory is used more than others, doesn't mean it's accurate either.
    There are many different theories, yet you cling to only one - like Linus and his little security blanket.

    And as far as your other comment about ENTPs having the same weaknesses,
    what is a weakness of yours could be a weakness of any human being.

  4. #324
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I like it.

    And I know this is not exactly your cup of tea, but what would you think of a shadow function used... ok, fuck it. I'm just gunna be specific, cuz this question obviously is based off my own experience:

    If you think an INTJ could combine Ni and Fi in a healthy manner, then what do you think of an INTJ using Ni and his Ti shadow in conjunction with one another? Assuming he is able to access both his Ne and Ti to a degree relatively similarly to that of a tertiary function? (Just play along, Sim...)
    It's possible, but I think the "assuming that..." part at the end makes it improbable. Most people have trouble with the tertiary as it is, so accessing the tertiary's shadow is going to be tough.

    None of this shadow function stuff is impossible; it's just that it's our natural cognitive tendency to try to approach most problems in terms of the ways we are most used to (and thus most comfortable with) solving problems.

    Maybe shadow function access is a little easier for Ni doms, since their dominant perspective is in itself an extended effort to avoid being retrained to singular perspectives (and perhaps thus explains your fixation with asserting the strength of your NTP functions). I still find Ti-related mistakes routinely in a lot of NTJ reasoning...you guys just always have a reason Ti's opinion doesn't matter.

    The frustrating part is I know you guys get it on a deep level, especially in terms of the abstract concepts (probably even better than we do), but you refuse to define anything clearly before it's become empirically verified--simultaneously a strength and a weakness. It's like you guys understand what we're getting at but won't grant our models validity until shown Te-quality proof, which is sometimes advantageous (when the NTP model turns out to be wrong) and sometimes not (when NTP was quicker than you to make up an articulable explanation and start trying, and happened to get it right.)

    To be using Ne+Ti, you would need to really understand the value in understanding one precise set of conditions in as much total clarity as possible with no regard for the external applicability of that understanding, for no reason other than that the relationships that make up its internal structure are aesthetically appealing. NTJs always seem to skip a lot of the potentially interesting information in their search for that which can be externally applied--hence your frustration with NeTi's spider web thinking.

    Te: "How is this relevant or useful to my goal of increasing understanding of the topic we STARTED on?" They don't care about understanding every structural detail of one precise set of conditions if those conditions will never actually happen--Te would rather have a wider, more encompassing idea that applies in a wide variety of useful contexts than an absolutely perfect, crystal clear understanding of one hypothetical context that may not ever apply to anything.

    But Ti wouldn't. If it's structurally appealing, we study it because that's fascinating.

    Sorry, did that get a little off topic? Surely your Ne will understand
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #325
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    In the case of this thread, it may have been pilot error, but I'm beginning to suspect Russian conspiracy. Or Iranian (Persian?)

  6. #326
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It might be "funny" or "unlikely" to a dilettante like yourself, but it's not funny to those more experienced like Linda Berens and Judy Robb.
    And don't weasel out of it by claiming only Tert Ni. We both know you mean any SP.
    Well I actually said "tertiary (or inferior?) Ni" in my post to Poki, so that was no secret. I just wrote tertiary this time because he seems more likely to be ISTP to me, but sure, inferior too. I'll go ahead and say that I rarely see an SP yield Ni more effectively than an NJ, though it is theoretically possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Big Picture - Many Artisans-SPs are interested in the big picture.

    Full article here:
    How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates
    So? A lot of SJs are interested in American football. That doesn't make them any good at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    For the record, Sim, you have no way of knowing what functions poki has developed, and that includes his Tert.
    Your constant reference to people's function orders as rigid absolutes serves no purpose, but to stymie personal growth and understanding.
    You're correct, Te--I do not have any way of holding absolute empirical certainty about which functions poki has developed. I guess all I can do is go by the fact that the average SP has much weaker Ni than the average NJ, coupled with the fact that I haven't seen any particularly impressive Ni in poki's posts.

    And I've lost count of how many times I've explained to you that I don't believe rigid function orders describe everyone accurately. Have you read my posts in this thread?

    Here goes Te again, insisting that no information is useful until empirically measured and quantified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I have news for you, there are some Jungians who think the Dom/Aux have the same attitude. Yeah, you read that right.
    So while some are having pissing matches about the Tert's attitude, there are people who don't even think the Dom/Aux is carved in stone.
    Just because a single theory is more well-known than others, doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Just because a single theory is used more than others, doesn't mean it's accurate either.
    There are many different theories, yet you cling to only one - like Linus and his little security blanket.
    I don't think shit is carved in stone. I think there are widely accepted interpretations which can be used in argumentation to further develop my personal model...of course, further developing or otherwise restructuring my model is, I understand, dishonest and lazy in Te+Fi land.

    I'm just so very tired of addressing this. I know you understand what I mean; you just refuse to grant any Ne-oriented idea potential validity, and believe TeNi to be an objectively superior approach. Neither of us is going to bend on this; it's an immutable difference in perspectives, just let it go already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And as far as your other comment about ENTPs having the same weaknesses,
    what is a weakness of yours could be a weakness of any human being.
    It's like you just deliberately refuse to engage in Ne-oriented thought. I get it, you think Ne is invalid, great.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #327
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Pilot error. haha.

  8. #328
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Here comes the self-righteous rant about how thinking I'm full of shit doesn't indicate that you think Ne is invalid, right?

    Nevermind that you apply this nonsense to every Ne and/or Ti idea you encounter. At least half of your posts consist purely of ranting about how stupid Ne and Ti are; you just don't realize you're saying the same shit and that it all ties into the same played out theme: you think Ne/Ti reasoning is stupid and unsubstantiated.

    And you presume yourself so open-minded and perceptive. Why can't you perceive that the vast majority of your disagreements with people here are just you talking shit about non-NTJ perspectives?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It might be "funny" or "unlikely" to a dilettante like yourself, but it's not funny to those more experienced like Linda Berens and Judy Robb.
    And don't weasel out of it by claiming only Tert Ni. We both know you mean any SP.

    Big Picture - Many Artisans-SPs are interested in the big picture.

    Full article here:
    How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates

    For the record, Sim, you have no way of knowing what functions poki has developed, and that includes his Tert.
    Your constant reference to people's function orders as rigid absolutes serves no purpose, but to stymie personal growth and understanding.

    I have news for you, there are some Jungians who think the Dom/Aux have the same attitude. Yeah, you read that right.
    So while some are having pissing matches about the Tert's attitude, there are people who don't even think the Dom/Aux is carved in stone.
    Just because a single theory is more well-known than others, doesn't mean it's accurate.
    Just because a single theory is used more than others, doesn't mean it's accurate either.
    There are many different theories, yet you cling to only one - like Linus and his little security blanket.

    And as far as your other comment about ENTPs having the same weaknesses,
    what is a weakness of yours could be a weakness of any human being.
    I like when Jaguar actually offers something substantive.

  10. #330
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    He'll be the first to point out that preference =/= skill.

    I don't stick to my current model because somebody told me to; I stick to it because it seems the most intuitively applicable to explaining what I observe in the people around me. It's that simple. My model isn't based on popularity; it's based on my own observations and their consistency with existing theory.

    If you recall, Jag, as you so often love to remind me, I was the one promoting a four-function model for several months, which is supported by zero authors and almost no one on the forum, and you think I'm trying to win a popularity contest?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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