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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    To all the non-discriminatory white, male, NTs: Thank you for your highly esteemed behavior to non white male NTs. Unfortunately, discriminatory NT behavior is a real phenomenon on Type C, and I suspect irl as well. I'm just not usually privy to it because I'm not in white male NT circles much.


    To Poki: The only thing I'm saying that's really different is that normal functioning involves oppositely orienting the tertiary to the dominant. This would be normal daily positive encounters with others and the world. I'm not sure I like the 'loop' terminology, but okay, I've been stuck in a loop before. A loop for me exists when no answer can be found and you keep going round and round. A loop might be the beginning of a neurosis, such that so long as the loop keeps going round, you're sort-of stagnated in a negative space, instead of the normal positive one. Finally, as the dominant demands solutions the unconscious functions cannot provide, it exerts pressure on the tertiary especially (because it is weaker than the auxiliary, although the auxiliary could be coerced as well, as we see sometimes in extreme neurosis or psychosis) and bends it into a subjective (or objective for extraverts) orientation, ending the 'loop' and beginning the extreme orientation which usually manifests in some outcome, be it additional insight or some newly garnered knowledge, although this will come at a cost to the subject's psyche if this state is sustained.

    So, in effect, you have the exteme behavior which can only be obtained by extreme methods, such as you would have with an extreme orientation. Yet extreme behavior can elicit exciting results as well, tho at a cost to the host. It's the whole ying/yang thing if you will. Suppress part of your psyche, and it will repress and manifest somewhere else. The more you suppress, the stronger the underlying tempation will be.
    So does this mean that normal functioning for an INTP is to orient S outward and to Se? Can you explain how this presents itself?
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
    Youre just full of F arent you

  3. #213
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am - well-rounded, shall we say!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #214
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
    Well, you probably do. I use Fi a lot now. Maybe even more than Fe at this point. That's why this stuff isn't as much fun once you start using more functions well.


    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    So does this mean that normal functioning for an INTP is to orient S outward and to Se? Can you explain how this presents itself?
    Well, I don't know many, but I think they like to watch people. They would be using a tertiary function, so it would be weak-ish and not very developed, until they got older, so age matters with the Se of an INTP. But it's the Ti/Se blend that makes them be able to really make things work. And it the Ti/Ne blend that makes them make ideas work, and fit ideas together to form a myriad of thoughts and possibilities. It's when they run out of Se motivation for some reason that the 'mad scientist' Ti/Si looping or eventual adhesion occurs, and when they walk around not seeing things or with their head in the clouds. But I don't think that's their most balanced state. Same goes for ISTP. They can be very Ti/Se and Ti/Ne, very intuitive as they age, more so than using Ti/Ni unless they introvert too much for some reason, resulting in paranoid delusions.


    I don't know about you, but I'm going to run and hide now before Z gets back............
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  5. #215
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Well, you probably do. I use Fi a lot now. Maybe even more than Fe at this point. That's why this stuff isn't as much fun once you start using more functions well.
    The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

    What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.

    I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.

    Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

    I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

    If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #216
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Hint: To Poki. White male NTs tend to be discriminatory to anyone not white, male, and NT.
    I hope this is a bad trolling attempt...for your sake.

    You're being criticized because your ideas have problems, not because you're non-male or non-NT. Don't kid yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    You are trolling again. Why don't you say something substantive or nothing at all? hmm?
    It's hysterical that you're claiming discrimination, of all things. You're so desperate to validate your ideas that you have to blame the negative response they get on discrimination? Are you fucking kidding me?

    And it's doubly hysterical that you'd chide Jaguar for "not saying anything substantive", after offering up such a steaming pile of shit for your most recent argument...good lord.

    Did you ever consider that maybe you're getting a negative response because you're wrong, and not because white NT males all have a secret conspiracy to invalidate your thoughts? Talk about Ni conspiracy theory babble! You're off the rails.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #217
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

    What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.
    I totally agree that it is hard to define and delineate where preferences change orientations. That is why I personally wanted to keep definitions loose--like to two words even, because we don't live in a vacuum and functions simply work together, especially as one gains life experience. But I think there is something to be said for introverting or extraverting a preference within the same person. A person usually uses one orientation over another, and if that person changed their orientation of that particular function, it's going to make a marked difference in either their intuiting, sensing, thinking, or feeling.

    Jung has good definitions (except for the Fe problem I've already spoken about). If a person prefers Te, then his will objectively look to facts and data in the world and those will become paramount for his thinking. He is a master of data collection and all that entails; organizing, efficiently using, applying, etc. Ti subjectifies thinking into specific inner workings of things or ideas; it takes an idea or object and joins it with Ne or Se to either make something work, or to flesh out possibilities. It figures out the essence of something on its own. These are really very different ways of being, just like Fi and Fe are different ways of being.

    I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.
    Well, it is difficult when speaking about cognitive functions to have a similar perspective, because we tend to want to look at the function in question as if it were under a microscope; to identify its particular qualities, try to define it, try to understand where it ends and its sister function begins. So, it is a bit ridiculous to use real world examples to explain it, although we lapse into that in our attempt to understand it. Its real workings are so elusive that in looking so closely at it and studying it, it's almost like we destroy it. Yet a certain amount of dissection is necessary for educational purposes.

    Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

    I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

    If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
    I hear you. It gets a bit tiring arguing about such vague concepts. We know so little about how the mind works, that I think it's comforting to find a system that actually seems to have some merit in that regard.

    I just got my Gifts Differing book by Isabel Meyers and I like it a lot more than the Thompson book. I owe Isabel Meyers an apology. It was her mother who actually created the J/P dichotomy before she read Jung's work in the early part of the last century. But when she saw his work, she became excited because his theory went further than hers to explain how people are in the world. They went on to add the J/P dichotomy, believing that it really identified a different aspect, or character trait, of how people behave--our typical judging/perceiving lingo pretty much, as in 'leaving things open' or 'having things settled,' etc. However, in this book she doesn't even talk about the tertiary function that I've seen, and I've skimmed the whole book. So, she basically addresses the types by their dominant and auxiliary only, along with the J/P dichotomy.

    So, I'm not sure who identified the tertiary as how it is, or why. Maybe it was the MBTI foundation, or maybe it was another theorist. Sure, none of this really matters. We could pursue more important thoughts like how does our environment affect our ego development. How much are we affected by our genetics. Is there anything else about our personality that can identify behavior patterns. If so, what are they. And so on. But we're on a typology forum so it's inevitable that typology freaks are going to hash through this stuff, and since it regards one's personality, it's, well, personal to a certain degree; kinda hard to talk about the orientation of the tertiary function without looking at the manifestations of a person's perceived behavior.
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  8. #218
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The fundament of what you are saying though is that Fi = selfish inner voices and Fe = altruistic 'help the world' actions, and I just don't think it is as simple as that ...

    What then would Ti have to consider? If Fi is inner world, and Fe outer world (as above), then the same container should hold water for Ti and Te. Since T claims the purview of objectivity, something must exist in order for it to be thus contemplated. So what can Ti do here? You can't be subjectively objective about ... nothing? The outer world would be invisible to it.

    I don't deny anyone their particular reality, so why is it so frequently assumed in this thread that one can so readily inhabit the world of another? Fe contemplated on itself is not Fi; my Fi delivered with love to the outer world is not Fe. I used to argue against this point, but support it at this point in my understanding.

    Maybe sim is correct in this regard; INFP may be the most likely to rebel against conformity, a certain lack of "uniqueness" as it were. We should just consider 4 temperaments however, if we are not going to discern between any deeper differences here. NT / NF / SJ and SP. Let's just go with those 4 and forget the rest - otherwise, let's regard the personal spaces of other types with a certain respect and autonomy, despite the fuzzy edges we encounter.

    I don't presume that because I am a programmer it is because I can use Ti well; when I can socially navigate a room it's because I am using Fe; or when I plant my garden and tend to it carefully that I yield Se with any particular talent.

    If you feel emo it's not because you are an INFP today. It's just not.
    Great post, especially bolded parts!

    'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #219
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
    Hahahahaha!

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Great post, especially bolded parts!

    'Course, you're non-male and non-NT, so I guess I should be tearing your posts apart instead of complimenting them. You know, since I'm racist, sexist and prejudiced against every non-NT type and all...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Hahahahaha!
    Seriously.

    I don't have time (yet) to tear this theory apart, but that was one of the most ridiculous comments I've seen on typeC. And that's saying something...

    Aphrodite: your ethos took a major hit with that one...

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