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  1. #201
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I see why Z loves you.
    I know, right?

  2. #202
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I really do see the similarity between INFJ and INTJ. My ex-wife is ESFJ, and we had so much in common. I was surprised at how fundamentally different we were, underneath it all. Only by pushing things into the realm of disagreement did the rather stark differences become apparent at all. It was our differing motivations that caused us to drift apart: the apparent similarities had no binding power.
    Right..I tend to agree with this. Motivations are so key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrodite
    You know, I think just like with other things, it's the action. It's the expression. But the main variable in that is on a consistent basis. Because people won't continue the innate action or behavior unless it's what's comfortable for them. They will revert eventually into the comfortable way of being. So, it's what someone does over time, consistently, I think. Not just what one wants to be or wants to do.
    Yes, I agree consistency can say a lot, and generally people aren't going to consistently perform the same action/behavior unless it's comfortable for them.

    But, that said, the exact same action might be equally comfortable between an INTJ and an INFJ, or INTJ and ESFJ (like uumlau says), but the *reasons* that they're doing it are utterly different.
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  3. #203
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think this might be the core of the disagreement.

    You see, for example, INTJs behaving with what you regard as "Fe" mannerisms. Therefore, that is Fe.

    I do not deny that I "act Fe" at times. I was raised to be very polite, to be courteous.

    But there is a key difference between those whose types have Fe as their strongest "F" function and those who have Fi as their strongest "F" function, and it's how they process the feelings in the first place. The processing can both lead to similar conclusions and different conclusions. It is by reviewing the different conclusions that one can begin to separate out the actions from the motivations, and discover that the underlying motivations are different.

    I understand. I respect that you know what functions you use. If you say you use Fi, I'll try and believe you, although I don't feel it as much as Fe. And I know Fi when I feel it; so asking me to believe an entp, for example, uses Fe more than Fi is quite a stretch for me.
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  4. #204
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    But, that said, the exact same action might be equally comfortable between an INTJ and an INFJ, or INTJ and ESFJ (like uumlau says), but the *reasons* that they're doing it are utterly different.
    What action would be comfortable between an INFJ and an INTJ?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  5. #205
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    What action would be comfortable between an INFJ and an INTJ?
    An INTJ and an INFJ could be equally comfortable performing the same action. I didn't have a specific in mind....I think it could apply to pretty much anything, across all personality types.

    All types can and do perform the same actions at times, just for highly different reasons/motivations.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #206
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I understand. I respect that you know what functions you use. If you say you use Fi, I'll try and believe you, although I don't feel it as much as Fe. And I know Fi when I feel it; so asking me to believe an entp, for example, uses Fe more than Fi is quite a stretch for me.
    I very much feel the Fe from an ENTP, especially when an argument heats up. The same things that irk the strong Fi-users from ENTPs also irk me for very similar reasons. Similarly, I can feel the Fi from INTJs and INFPs alike, the main difference being that the INTJ has the iron Te control, and the INFP hides with extra shyness. ENFPs seem to outwardly show exactly what I feel inside. Even as they can be insanely random with their NeFi, I can follow that randomness effortlessly.

    From xNFJs I get this sense of dignity that engenders nothing but respect and admiration from me. But I've noticed that I can occasionally mistake INFJ for INTJ and vice versa, for the very reasons that you cite. I attribute it, however, to "Te looks a lot like Fe until you dig deeper" (motivations), and not "Fe" is the real INTJ tertiary.

    I think we'll get to the bottom of this, eventually. It'll just take time and patience.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #207
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    An INTJ and an INFJ could be equally comfortable performing the same action. I didn't have a specific in mind....I think it could apply to pretty much anything, across all personality types.

    All types can and do perform the same actions at times, just for highly different reasons/motivations.
    Well, looking at actions or motivations on a case-by-case basis would be hard to identify a person's preferences. I think it's only by watching someone's behavior over a period of time, that it becomes evident what their preferences are.

    It's like with someone who 'wants' to be organized but just isn't. They might get a planner, write in it, tell others about how they are organizing their life, and appear more organized for a while; but then if they stop looking at their planner, start winging things and being spontaneous, and get unorganized again, no matter that they wanted to be organized, they just aren't for whatever reason; it's not in their nature.

    Or another example is being introverted/extraverted. If an introvert *wants* to be more extraverted he might direct his energy outside himself to objects for a while. His intent is to be more extraverted and object-oriented, and it will work for a while, but he will eventually revert back into his normal introverted subjective nature. He might still want to be extraverted inside, or be motivated by objective ideals, but if he stays introverted as his natural state, he is an introvert.

    I can see that a neurotic person could get caught between these ideals, which might be why going with a person's intent seems inherently right; because a person might, out of shyness or a poor ego state, or any other reasons, not be able to manifest his or her ideal or natural state. This could indeed happen, but it would be more rare than that a person just expresses their normal way of being through actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I very much feel the Fe from an ENTP, especially when an argument heats up. The same things that irk the strong Fi-users from ENTPs also irk me for very similar reasons. Similarly, I can feel the Fi from INTJs and INFPs alike, the main difference being that the INTJ has the iron Te control, and the INFP hides with extra shyness. ENFPs seem to outwardly show exactly what I feel inside. Even as they can be insanely random with their NeFi, I can follow that randomness effortlessly.

    From xNFJs I get this sense of dignity that engenders nothing but respect and admiration from me. But I've noticed that I can occasionally mistake INFJ for INTJ and vice versa, for the very reasons that you cite. I attribute it, however, to "Te looks a lot like Fe until you dig deeper" (motivations), and not "Fe" is the real INTJ tertiary.

    I think we'll get to the bottom of this, eventually. It'll just take time and patience.

    Well, I see something different. I will continue to study and watch.
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  8. #208
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post

    Well, I see something different. I will continue to study and watch.
    Really? Interesting. I notice myself understanding, almost effortlessly, those who have TiFe. Those who are FiTe (FP's) are ones that I don't immediately relate to, and often scratch my head over...but NTJ's I relate to relatively easily (I associate this with shared Ni).

    I gather you see yourself utilizing Te moreso than Ti, given your theory? I relate quite a lot to descriptions of Ti (moreso than Te). But, I've also always thought everyone has the ability to utilize all 8 functions.

    Re. behaviors over the longterm - I do agree with you, you can't maintain a certain behavior that is uncomfortable for you over the longterm. But I still think we're speaking of slightly different things. I'm referring to a given action - any little thing. Say, for example, rock-climbing. I rock-climb, and approach rock-climbing, in a vastly different manner than an ESFP dude does. Same action: An outsider observing both of us wouldn't know anything about inner reasons or how we approach all of it from a safety perspective. Etc. Even the hand-clapping thing all of you were talking about. To say it's 'uncomfortable' for any of the types, across the board, would be a gross generalization. It's just as has been illustrated by people already (including yourself), people clap for different reasons - different motivations. So taking an isolated little behavior and attributing an isolated cognitive function to a particular behavior is going a bit far imo, because cognitive functions do not equate to behaviors. I'm not saying you're saying that, I'm just adding my thought. I think combinations of cognitive functions can result in a behavior, but you can have an entirely different set of cognitive functions that would result in the same *behavior* -- same net effect. You can arrive at the same behavior through a variety of different means (functions/motivations/what have you).
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #209
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Really? Interesting. I notice myself understanding, almost effortlessly, those who have Ti, and those who are FiTe are ones that I don't immediately relate to.


    I gather you see yourself utilizing Te moreso than Ti, given your theory? I relate quite a lot to descriptions of Ti, but also to elements of Te. But, I've also always thought everyone has the ability to utilize all 8 functions.
    Oh yeah, definitely we use all 8 I think too. It's just that those first three are the main ones. As we go through life, the others get stronger so this stuff become less and less important, imo, unless someone manifests a neurosis or something like that.

    As for me, I use Ni/Fe/Te on a daily basis to manage my life and be in the world. But I have a large family, so my Te is very necessary. When I use Ti I am thinking about concepts or learning something new, as I have been lately. As an introverted function, it is highly introverting however, and that could become skewing over time for an introvert; just too much introversion. Ti is great, it's just that using it over an extraverted function, I can see that it makes me more introverted overall, much more. That might be the key as to why some are more introverted or extraverted; the orientation of the tertiary.

    I just think the aux and tert, each working in cohort with the dom (and aligned opposite), provides the best balance for folks over time. But they all have their strengths obviously.

    Re. behaviors over the longterm - I do agree with you, you can't maintain a certain behavior that is uncomfortable for you over the longterm. But I still think we're speaking of slightly different things. I'm referring to a given action - any little thing. Say, for example, rock-climbing. I rock-climb, and approach rock-climbing, in a vastly different manner than an ESFP dude does. Same action: An outsider observing both of us wouldn't know anything about inner reasons or how we approach all of it from a safety perspective. Etc.
    But rock-climbing is an activity that exists outside of cognitive functions.

    To say that you decided you didn't want to rock climb at the last minute but didn't want to let the group down that was depending on you, would be more Fe.

    To not go anyway, is more Fi.

    Over times these Fe and Fi actions add up to give a feel for a person's overall function attitude. If we go by our inner feelings, and not the outer feelings, it only gives us part of the picture; we might not want to go rock climbing but if we are driven to do it, that is Fe, and that is the stronger feeling. People do what they want and need to do in the end, unless they are being coerced or controlled for some reason, and then they will still fight it, and won't be able to suppress that innate drive.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  10. #210
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Over times these Fe and Fi actions add up to give a feel for a person's overall function attitude. If we go by our inner feelings, and not the outer feelings, it only gives us part of the picture; we might not want to go rock climbing but if we are driven to do it, that is Fe, and that is the stronger feeling. People do what they want and need to do in the end, unless they are being coerced or controlled for some reason, and then they will still fight it.
    I have to disagree with that - unless I use Fe and Fi all the time ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


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    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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