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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ... it would seem that there would be a spectrum from Judger to Perceiver:

    ExxJs would be the most judgmental.
    IxxJs would the second most.
    IxxPs would be the third most.
    and ExxPs would be the least judgmental.
    This might explain why Jag is such a crotchety old bastard!


  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So then, would Je doms have more of whatever "Judgers" have than Je auxs?
    Well, what is it that judgers have?

    But yes, Je-doms will prefer their judging function, and Je-aux will prefer their perceiving function. The nature of the orientation will still make Je-aux appear "judging" though. Generally, when you get to know introverts, you find a surprise. IxxJs may be more flexible or even "soft" than you'd expect, and IxxPs will have a strong backbone under that flexible skin.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Maybe this is known to some of you, but I'm sure it's not known to the lot of you...

    I was kicking some thoughts around in my head the other day, and I realized that all NJs (INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ) are either Ni doms or Ni auxs.

    At the same time, all NPs (INTP, ENTP, INFP, ENFP) are Ne doms or Ne auxs.

    Then I realized that something similar holds true for Ss.

    All SJs (ISTJ, ESTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ) are Si doms or auxs, and all SPs (ESFP, ISTP, ESTP, ISFP) are Se doms or auxs.

    Accordingly, all Pi doms or auxs are Judgers, and all Pe doms or auxs are Perceivers.

    So, my question to you is: what is it about having Pi (Ni,Si) as your dom or aux that makes one a Judger, and what is it about Pe (Ne,Se) as your dom or aux that makes one a Perceiver?

    Ummm.. Yes. That is the definition of J and P. The letter correlates to what is being extravereted. J means someone that Extraverts Judgement, so therefore they are have Introverted Perception. P means someone Extraverts Perception, so therefore they have Introverted Judgement.

    Why? In this case it's just notation, so it's really up to the creator so it works however they want it to. I personaly think Meyers's way of denoting the process order is unintuitive and it causes a lot of confusion. It would make more sense and be more consistent if the 4th letter worked like the 1st letter, and J and P refered to whether the dominant process was Judging or Perceiving. But oh well, that's not how she chose to do it and I'm not sure why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ExxJs would be the most judgmental.
    IxxJs would the second most.
    IxxPs would be the third most.
    and ExxPs would be the least judgmental.

    Does the same really go for perceptiveness?

    Would ExxPs be the most perceptive?
    Followed by IxxPs?
    Followed by IxxJs?
    Followed by ExxJs?

    It seems to work rather cleanly from most judgmental to least judgmental, but are IxxJs and ExxJs indeed less perceptive than ExxPs and IxxPs?

    I guess the question becomes: is perceiving really a thing-in-itself, or is it simply a lack of judging?
    Ehh, I think it might only be that way very superficially, if even that much. That something is Extraverted or Introverted does not make it less or more so. I think the very manner in which people look at the 4th letter as a dichotomy (which is entirely the fault of how Meyers and Briggs chose to label it) causes people to really misunderstand.

    If you can dare to read the whole the whole thing, the third link down in my signature might be of interest to you (though much of it is only peripherally related to this topic).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I personaly think Meyers's way of denoting the process order is unintuitive and it causes a lot of confusion. It would make more sense and be more consistent if the 4th letter worked like the 1st letter, and J and P refered to whether the dominant process was Judging or Perceiving. But oh well, that's not how she chose to do it and I'm not sure why.
    It's for testing purposes. It's easier to test external behavior, so testing for the extroverted function is a simple way to determine what someone's dominant function is. Of course, we all know it is flawed, because much of what "P/J" tests for can be a bit stereotypical & behavior is not always in-line with cognitive function, but in order to simplify the system to get it to the masses, it was probably seen as "necessary".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ummm.. Yes. That is the definition of J and P. The letter correlates to what is being extravereted. J means someone that Extraverts Judgement, so therefore they are have Introverted Perception. P means someone Extraverts Perception, so therefore they have Introverted Judgement.

    Why? In this case it's just notation, so it's really up to the creator so it works however they want it to. I personaly think Meyers's way of denoting the process order is unintuitive and it causes a lot of confusion. It would make more sense and be more consistent if the 4th letter worked like the 1st letter, and J and P refered to whether the dominant process was Judging or Perceiving. But oh well, that's not how she chose to do it and I'm not sure why.
    Is this the reason for the difference between Socionics notation and MBTI notation?

    EDIT: on second thought, I don't think it is. But that was another question of mine about which I wanted to start a thread...

    EDIT2: Wait, on third thought, maybe it is the reason...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ehh, I think it might only be that way very superficially, if even that much. That something is Extraverted or Introverted does not make it less or more so.
    It's not the Extravertedness or Intravertedness that I was referring to...

    It was whether the Je function was dominant or auxiliary.

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is this the reason for the difference between Socionics notation and MBTI notation?

    EDIT: on second thought, I don't think it is. But that was another question of mine about which I wanted to start a thread...

    EDIT2: Wait, on third thought, maybe it is the reason...
    Well, you're on to something. I wouldn't call it the reason because there are more than one, but it's one of the big differences, and this case I have to side with socionics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's not the Extravertedness or Intravertedness that I was referring to...

    It was whether the Je function was dominant or auxiliary.
    Well, I can see what you're saying, but by having the The E__J ranks as much more judgemental than the I__P, you are in fact implying that the E vs I of a process makes a difference in which is more judgemental, are you not?
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  8. #18
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    You are using the wrong definition of "judgement" In MBTI terms, judging = likes closure and perceiving= likes options. However, judging does not equate to being "judgmental" and perceiving does not equate to being "perceptive".

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I can see what you're saying, but by having the The E__J ranks as much more judgemental than the I__P, you are in fact implying that the E vs I of a process makes a difference in which is more judgemental, are you not?
    I believe that would be the case based on my claim, but it would be purely correlatiional, not causational.

    I mean, I didn't say the ExxP is more judgmental that IxxP...

    Get my drift?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    You are using the wrong definition of "judgement" In MBTI terms, judging = likes closure and perceiving= likes options. However, judging does not equate to being "judgmental" and perceiving does not equate to being "perceptive".
    Yeah, I figured I might be misusing it a bit, but, at the same time, am I really?

    I mean, ExxPs seem to much less judgmental (in the normal, everyday sense of the word) than your typical ExxJ, in my opinion.

    I mean, might there not be some kind of correlation between liking closure and being judgmental and liking options and being perceiving?

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