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  1. #161
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Does the fact that the system is subjective really make it a load of horse manure?

    The same could be said of all philosophical discussion. There's no empirical evidence, but does that deprive it of any value or meaning?
    No, I said it was a "possible" answer, not the answer.

    Note that I continue to discuss MBTI ideas. I believe they are worthy of discussion and that the vocabulary is remarkably useful for discussing personal perspectives, even if the "rules" of MBTI are complete hogwash. I suspect there is a lot of (subjective) truth in those "rules," but that it can be difficult to discern.

    I also suspect that the rules, assuming that they are true, are but the barest outlines of what is really going on, and that it is possible for individuals to "step outside" of the rules as understood, though such claims must be naturally met with much skepticism. Mostly, I think that if one understands that there are different patterns of thinking, and gains an understanding w/r to "how to think" in various ways, then one starts to violate the typical rules of MBTI.

    My personal perspective is that MBTI describes common "equilibrium states" of the human psyche. This is balanced with that. These are balanced with those. So if one adopts an extreme posture in one regard, then a compensating posture is adopted in another area of the psyche. There are certainly imbalanced states which various investigators have tried to research (e.g., shadow functions), and I suspect that there exist human equilibria that do not technically exist in MBTI, and thus violate the "rules" of MBTI.

    The main thing to recall is that if it is a subjective system, then the best one can do is share perspectives and understandings. The notion of proving others right or wrong just doesn't fly, unless such proof rests on the inconsistency of the others' ideas ... and even that is only a disproof of the other ideas, not a proof of one's own ideas.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #162
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    One of the reasons I do not argue vociferously for any particular view/hypothesis/interpretation of MBTI and Jungian functions is that every single one, including my own, is not falsifiable. This is pseudoscience, after all. I just offer up my own internal observations, compare to MBTI/Jung, and see what others think of them. Never forget that one possible answer to all of these disagreements is "MBTI is a load of horse manure, therefore all of you are wrong."
    Always nice to have the nuclear option available, isn't it?

  3. #163
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I applaud you for acknowledging the existence of INTJ weaknesses in the first place. I'm afraid some NTJs don't even realize there's such a thing.
    The more you keep thinking an entire group of people all have the same weaknesses, the more you can justify ignoring your own.
    Attaboy!

  4. #164
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Hmm, I think the topics between your thread and AGA's threads are blurring in my mind. They're mildly related in that AGA is sure that INTJs use Fe, not Fi. The same way that Pi goes with Je and Pe goes with Ji, Te goes with Fi and Fe goes with Ti. Yet AGA seems certain that Te and Fe go together, which breaks the whole pattern.
    There is the brain lateralization theory, which would pair Te and Fe as "left-brain alternatives". If the Te doesn't solve a problem for an INTJ, it could degrade to it's Fi "tandem-mate", or go into the shadow, either as its "double-agent", Ti, or left brain alternative, Fe. Not sure what specific situations would determine which it degrades to, but it probably involves stress level. The more stress, the further down in preference it will resort to.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Does the fact that the system is subjective really make it a load of horse manure?

    The same could be said of all philosophical discussion. There's no empirical evidence, but does that deprive it of any value or meaning?
    i.e., absence of evidence ain't evidence of absence.

    I mean, we're working under the cognitivist umbrella, aren't we? Not the behavioralist?

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interesting that you have examples without explanation, never mind the potential for confirmation bias.

    "Oh, that perfectly describes Orobas, so it MUST be true."
    The Orobas example was pretty thoroughly discussed in the ENFP bitchslap thread. I said I thought she was an ENTP, then we went through the whole discussion of her defunct Fi. I thought it was convincing.

    Sim provided the explanation for the other two. As I said, I don't really know them at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I can do the same with a horoscope. Just ask the lovely Ms. Sapienne.

    Look up "cold reading" while you're at it.
    I've heard, and I know what a cold reading is.

  7. #167
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Always nice to have the nuclear option available, isn't it?
    It's tempting to use at times, but really I'm just pointing out that none of us is on solid ground discussing MBTI, and it would behoove us all not to pretend that we are.

    If I discuss/answer a physics question, I have an entire world of knowledge and library of references to make it clear to everyone that my answer is correct, and leave little room for discussion. It's one of the reasons physics discussions are boring for me, in spite of my fascination with the topic.

    MBTI is interesting to discuss because there appears to be a good deal of validity to it, but no one is quite able to make any definitive statements about it, beyond well, um, definitions. Where the rubber hits the road, and MBTI is applied on real people, every statement is a guess, every statement has a degree of uncertainty.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #168
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    A=50 is subjective.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #169
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Claiming to have a big dick, is also subjective.

  10. #170
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Claiming to have a big dick, is also subjective.
    And claiming to BE a big dick will generally result in no argument.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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