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  1. #121
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    ^ Oh, but your comment about "undue condescension" is still hilarious...

    As if I was the one who introduced a condescending tone into this thread...

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let's see if I can put things together a bit more, because, as you've noted PB, identifying an action as arising from a single function is like unbaking a cake.

    The main reason I used clapping as an example is that it is a very very simple rule that everyone knows. So, everyone claps.

    I may very well be very moved and clap enthusiastically, but let's face it, most live performances are mediocre, or simply aren't something in which one is interested. So, I'll clap, but it feels "completely fake." It's just there because it's supposed to be there. I don't "feel like clapping." I just do it, just cuz.

    I would imagine an Fi dom would feel similarly. However, being "dom" would imply that one is perhaps more likely to do exactly as one feels. So if one really feels like clapping, then one claps, and if one doesn't feel like clapping, one doesn't clap, and doesn't care about any peer pressure to clap. This is, to be sure, an extreme example, and in my experience there is a decent amount of "Fe" to be found in any reasonably mature Fi dom. And there is of course the problem of trying to unbake the cake. If one claps, is one "using Fi" "using Te" or "using Fe"? I'm not IxFP, so I really can't tell you what went into the cake, as I could for my personal example.

    My speculation with respect to Fe is that Fe would clap and cheer because the object isn't simply just to express appreciation for the quality of the performance, but to encourage the performers, to send positive vibes, etc., even if the performance is "bad." That there is a motivation to clap for a bad/mediocre performance beyond "just following the rules of politeness." I've known strong Fe types to smile and clap and put on a show of support, and then tell me in private that they thought the performance was awful.
    Great post.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Hmm, I think the topics between your thread and AGA's threads are blurring in my mind. They're mildly related in that AGA is sure that INTJs use Fe, not Fi. The same way that Pi goes with Je and Pe goes with Ji, Te goes with Fi and Fe goes with Ti. Yet AGA seems certain that Te and Fe go together, which breaks the whole pattern.
    Alright. Acceptable.

    But only cuz I'm curious as to what the hell she thinks that for?!?

    I mean, not to get too group think on you here Aphrodite (the last thing I'd want to do is just assume that this system which we generally agree upon is absolutely correct because we all generally agree upon it), but where do you come up with something like that?

    I mean, maybe uumlau and I are just totally tricking ourselves and have been duped by the mainstream theory, and you in fact know the mind of an INTJ better than we do...

    OR

    Maybe the mainstream theory jibes extremely well with me (and I presume, uumlau, too) because it actually is the case...

    I mean... I feel no connection to Fe... and I feel lots of connection to Fi...

    Mind an explanation?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Is it mildly counterintuitive that "Introverted Judging" types are actually dominant in introverted perception? Yes, and that can be a little confusing at first, but the utility in looking at it that way is that we can freely refer to "NTJs" as one group of people using the same function orientations, regardless of which is dominant.

    If we use the Socionics method and take "Judger" to mean "someone who is dominant in a Judging process" (note that it does NOT carry this meaning in MBTI), then we have trouble elsewhere because an "NTj" could be an Ni/Te user or a Ti/Ne user depending on the first letter. We don't really know.

    Another advantage of MBTI's choice of meaning for words Judging/Perceiving is that each function can be aligned clearly with one particular combination of two type letters, which I find makes the relationship between types and functions easier to understand.

    If we use "Judging" to mean "dominant in a rational process" as it does in Socionics, then we can't make distinctions such as, "All NJs share Ni as dom/aux function" anymore because some NJs are Ni users and others are Ne users. It gets more confusing.
    This was valuable.

    Can we now end the squabbling and get on with the discussion.

    I'd like to start here:

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You know, Sim, I actually apologize for this comment I made about you seemingly not having read the thread thoroughly, cuz, having now read your entire post, it's not really the one that deserved that accusation.

    I was at work and (ironically) only read the first section of your post.

    This post as a whole is actually far better than anything else you wrote in this thread.

    There's actually some worthwhile, new information here.

    That being said, the reason why I made the accusation (although, really, I was just making an excuse for you) was because last night and/or this morning, most of your posts seemed to reflect the fact that you weren't fully versed or up-to-date in the thread.

    Most all of your questions and answers seemed out of touch or out of time with the (at the time) present state of the thread.

    The same doesn't really hold for this post.
    I think my previous posts were jumping ahead in terms of assuming that you knew certain things and then trying to answer the extentions of your original questions before you'd actually gotten to them. It was all related.

    Now then, what was your actual question? Was it to determine the significance of the dynamics between Pi and Je, or was it to determine what is "judgmental" about Pi and/or Je and/or J-type people?

    Am I correct in thinking you just want to explore the reasoning behind the way Js and Ps are labeled in each system?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Maybe the mainstream theory jibes extremely well with me (and I presume, uumlau, too) because it actually is the case...
    She's made up her own definitions for the functions. She doesn't mean the same thing you do when she uses the terms Fi, Fe, Te, etc.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think my previous posts were jumping ahead in terms of assuming that you knew certain things and then trying to answer the extentions of your original questions before you'd actually gotten to them. It was all related.
    I don't really think so.

    I think what was happening is that you were posting your responses but I already knew or had figured out that information from other people's (particularly Tesla's) responses.

    Furthermore, you had a condescending tone from the get-go, which was unappreciated (and thus reciprocated ).

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Now then, what was your actual question? Was it to determine the significance of the dynamics between Pi and Je, or was it to determine what is "judgmental" about Pi and/or Je and/or J-type people?

    Am I correct in thinking you just want to explore the reasoning behind the way Js and Ps are labeled in each system?
    As I said before, there have been a lot of questions I've wanted to explore in the short life of this thread, and all of the questions you mentioned have been among them.

    The discussion actually moved along pretty briskly last night (which is why I think what I explained above was occurring), but it's gotten dead-ended, so I've asked Tesla to try and revive it, starting here.

    Note: I would add to your questions that I wanted to see what people's thoughts were on the relation between judgmentalness, Jness (both MBTI and Socionics' version), and Pi/Je. I didn't simply assume, as you stated, that Jness = judgmentalness; I did, however, want to see what people's thoughts were on that question, how their thoughts on that question related to the dynamic between Pi and Je, and how their thoughts on that relation differ when speaking in terms of MBTI Jness vs. Socionics jness.

    I believe there were also other issues that I may have brought up along the way, but I really don't feel like going back over the whole thread to identify each individual one, and, for our present purposes, these will certainly suffice.

    To be honest, I've already wasted way more time on TypeC today than I should have, and I'd like to get some work done.

    That being said, please feel free to tackle the challenge I've put in front of Tesla.

    She wobbled when last addressing the issue, and you've bravely claimed that a related matter is very simple, so... well... go for it...

  7. #127
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That being said, please feel free to tackle the challenge I've put in front of Tesla.

    She wobbles when last addressing the issue, and you've bravely claimed the a related matter is very simply, so... well... go for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I know you said in your most recent post that I seemed content with your healthy/unhealthy cognition and mental productivity/unproductiveness, but, in all reality, I'm just getting my chops wet on this topic.

    Why do you think it is that Pi/Ji and Pe/Je combination would produce unhealthy cognition and mental unproductiveness?

    Do you think this would be more in reference to an aux/dom combination with these characteristics, or do you think it is an unhealthy/unproductive combination regardless of functional position?

    Any other thoughts on the matter?
    Pi/Ji and Pe/Je combinations are fine when they have the auxiliary Je (in the first case) or Ji (in the second) to moderate the balance between internal and external validation.

    The basic definition of introverted vs. extroverted functions is that introverted functions evaluate not-self according to the subjective criteria of self, while extroverted functions evaluate self according to the objective criteria of not-self.

    It's important to have influence from both or we run into a lot of common personality disorders. Pe+Je (or Je+Pe) results in too much extroversion; i.e., overemphasis on objective validation from other people and/or the outside environment, and difficulty getting in touch with what's personally, subjectively important to the individual in his own terms. (For an apt example, look at ENTP with bad Ti...you get Ne+Fe, which looks suspiciously like Narcissistic Personality Disorder, with its constant need for the adoration of others.)

    Pi+Ji (or Ji+Pi) results in too much introversion; i.e., placing too little value on new information from external sources, getting too wrapped up in personal subjective standards and being unable to place due value on objective, outside evaluations of the self. At the other end of the spectrum, consider an INTJ with poor Te, who operates primarily on Ni+Fi. He has a really hard time taking control of his life to get anything useful done because he undervalues objectivity and places too little emphasis on any sort of external feedback, and his Ni and Fi continually reinforce whatever private beliefs he holds regardless of any conflicting outside information. If all of this continues for too long, you can easily end up with Paranoid or Schizoid Personality Disorders. This explains the "crackpot conspiracy theorist" INTJ image.

    So it's not that the PiJeJiPe model describes every real IxxJ person perfectly; it's just that this is the most balanced and usually the most successful approach to personality integration for this style of cognition. Failure to adhere to it almost always results in personality imbalances in the form of too much introversion or extroversion, and people who suffer from these disorders can quite frequently improve their situations by working on the skills associated with the missing auxiliary function.

    e.g., the narcissistic ENTP discovers Ti and learns his own standards of subjective importance, and stops being overly dependent on everybody else's opinions for his self-image.

    The paranoid/reclusive INTJ discovers Te and learns how to measure and evaluate his life and accomplishments according to objective standards, allowing him to interact effectively with others and reach his goals, etc.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Pi/Ji and Pe/Je combinations are fine when they have the auxiliary Je (in the first case) or Ji (in the second) to moderate the balance between internal and external validation.

    The basic definition of introverted vs. extroverted functions is that introverted functions evaluate not-self according to the subjective criteria of self, while extroverted functions evaluate self according to the objective criteria of not-self.

    It's important to have influence from both or we run into a lot of common personality disorders. Pe+Je (or Je+Pe) results in too much extroversion; i.e., overemphasis on objective validation from other people and/or the outside environment, and difficulty getting in touch with what's personally, subjectively important to the individual in his own terms. (For an apt example, look at ENTP with bad Ti...you get Ne+Fe, which looks suspiciously like Narcissistic Personality Disorder, with its constant need for the adoration of others.)

    Pi+Ji (or Ji+Pi) results in too much introversion; i.e., placing too little value on new information from external sources, getting too wrapped up in personal subjective standards and being unable to place due value on objective, outside evaluations of the self. At the other end of the spectrum, consider an INTJ with poor Te, who operates primarily on Ni+Fi. He has a really hard time taking control of his life to get anything useful done because he undervalues objectivity and places too little emphasis on any sort of external feedback, and his Ni and Fi continually reinforce whatever private beliefs he holds regardless of any conflicting outside information. If all of this continues for too long, you can easily end up with Paranoid or Schizoid Personality Disorders. This explains the "crackpot conspiracy theorist" INTJ image.

    So it's not that the PiJeJiPe model describes every real IxxJ person perfectly; it's just that this is the most balanced and usually the most successful approach to personality integration for this style of cognition. Failure to adhere to it almost always results in personality imbalances in the form of too much introversion or extroversion, and people who suffer from these disorders can quite frequently improve their situations by working on the skills associated with the missing auxiliary function.

    e.g., the narcissistic ENTP discovers Ti and learns his own standards of subjective importance, and stops being overly dependent on everybody else's opinions for his self-image.

    The paranoid/reclusive INTJ discovers Te and learns how to measure and evaluate his life and accomplishments according to objective standards, allowing him to interact effectively with others and reach his goals, etc.
    Good stuff.

    With regards to the bolded:

    - Could you clarify what you mean by "validation"?

    - I'm assuming that objective and subjective here are not highly related to the ideas of accuracy, no? More about world vs self, right?

    With regards to personality disorders:

    - Do you think this is really where they stem from? Or do you think they have other origins?

    - If the former, do you think there are other functional relations that can also explain them, or just the ones you mentioned?

    - If the former, what are they? How about the other personality disorders?

  9. #129
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    Oh, and also, with regards to the above:

    - Do these Pi/Ji and Pe/Je loops necessarily have to be unhealthy and unproductive, or can they also be healthy and productive?

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    Oh, and the real $40 million question:

    - If, for example, an INTJ believes he uses both Ti and Ne in relative abundance (as in, equal to or greater than his tertiary function), then what of the relationship(s) between Ni and Ti and Ne and Te...

    - Also, necessarily unhealthy and unproductive? Or potentially healthy and productive?

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