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  1. #111
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I've asked for a number of comments, observations, explanations, and opinions on this post, but here are the main ones off the type of my head: I'm looking for a deeper reason, beyond being merely definitional, beyond mere internal consistency, about why Pi and Je go together; how this combination of dom/aux functions relates to judgmentalness; whether that's really a good definition of judgmentalness, as opposed to Socionics' definition; and more.

    (please read the bolded and italicized part over and over until you truly understand it if you're going to respond.)
    Can you pile any more undue condescension onto that post? You just figured out in the last week that all NJs share dom/aux Ni. Cut me some slack here and the favor will be returned.

    I believe you have made an error in the assumption that being a Judging type implies that one must be judgmental...so I don't understand why you're looking for a relationship between Pi+Je use and "judgmentalness." There isn't one.

    Did you want to know why Myers chose to label the rational processes "judgment" and the irrational ones "perception"?

    Or did you want to know what it is about Pi and Je that makes them work well together?

    Or something else?


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock
    Judgers internalize the information that they gather externally to fit some kind of impersonal construct, and the construct itself has no judgments attached to it (Pi). However, judgers use this construct made from information in the external environment to make judgments of value/worth (Je). Without the construct, no reasonable judgments about reality could be made, but since the construct aids in judgment about reality, Pi-ers are labeled as judgers.

    For judgers, judgment is expressed outwardly and founded and aided behind the scenes by perception.

    Perceivers, on the other hand, react more immediately to the information they gather externally (Pe). What allows them to do that is the existence of a priorly formed internal construct based on values that are derived internally according to the self (Ji). Without this construct, Pe-ers would have no long-established structure to aid them in their on-the-fly reactions to their environment. Since Ji serves to aid in perception, Pe/Ji-ers are called perceivers.

    For perceivers, perception is expressed outwardly and founded and aided behind the scenes by judgment.
    This is an extended version of what I said. It's also readily obvious if you know how functions work.

    Myers labeled Jung's rational functions as "Judgment" and his irrational ones as "Perception." This is because the rational functions use a linear, structured approach that focuses on evaluation of information, a decision or "judgment." This doesn't mean people who prefer these functions are judgmental and Myers didn't intend the term in that context. She designed the 4th letter of MBTI types to be a reflection of that person's dominant mode of extroversion.

    I know what you were looking for, Z...you wanted to know what characteristics of Pi can be described as "judgmental" and why. The answer is that there aren't any, because no one ever claimed that Pi is judgmental. Pi is not considered a Judging function and it has no judgmental properties. The only reason Pi+Je people are termed "Judgers" is that, in the context Myers intended when she coined those terms, the "Perceiving/Judging" label is only intended to describe the external approach...not the internal one.

    So, Pi+Je (and Je+Pi) types aren't labeled "Judgers" because they're judgmental; they're only labeled that way because Je's method of dealing with the external world is deliberate, methodical and focused on evaluating information.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #112
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Can you pile any more undue condescension onto that post?
    Oh, the irony.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Oh, the irony.


    Thank you for getting to that before I did...

  4. #114
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    Sim, I'll respond when I get home from work.

    For the moment, I'm just gunna chalk this up to you really not reading the thread thoroughly at all...

  5. #115
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Yet my ironical comment is spurned - it was hardly "vacuous" ...

    I still have thoughts to share with you on your reply my dear z ... I wanted to convey something deeper to you than just a quick slap of comedy or insult.

    There's a humility, that we are all learning, all growing, all coming into the equation as an individual variable. Even if we don't understand the math, each variable is worthy of consideration. And respect.

    Be nice - pretty is as pretty does.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yet my ironical comment is spurned

    I still have thoughts to share with you on your reply my dear z ... I wanted to convey something deeper to you than just a quick slap of comedy or insult.

    There's a humility, that we are all learning, all growing, all coming into the equation as an individual variable. Even if we don't understand the math, each variable is worthy of consideration. And respect.

    Be nice - pretty is as pretty does.
    PeaceBaby, I'm all for this conversation, but let's bring it to our walls or something...

    There's a very specific history with onemoretime that you may not understand, and that's why, amongst other reasons, I treated him the way I did.

    Not all people are worthy of respect: Hitler is a good example... and onemoretime.

  7. #117
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ walls it shall be. You should relax a little though I think on the paths your threads take ... you can always pull it back on topic and sometimes great truths are revealed through the branching of thought on thought.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #118
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    ^ And that's awfully Ne of you, but I usually make my threads with a very specific idea in mind, and so, when the thread goes off topic, something I may have been thinking about and wanting to discuss for 2-3 weeks or more is essentially being pushed aside.

    Not that I disagree that valuable discussion can take place concerning alternate thought-paths, and I am somewhat open to those creeping in, but I'd prefer to satisfy my Ni's desire to focus in on the matter it so desires.

  9. #119
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sim, I'll respond when I get home from work.

    For the moment, I'm just gunna chalk this up to you really not reading the thread thoroughly at all...
    Don't be a douche.


    I see two possibilities for the meaning of your question:

    1) You wanted to know about the dynamics between Pi and Je that make them show up together so often and compliment each other so well.

    I already answered that here:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    The answer to that is the same reason any combination of dom/aux functions is opposed in terms of both rationality and orientation: balance.

    Pi provides the best assistant to Je and vice versa because that way we get a balance between extroversion/introversion and perception/judgment.

    The strongest extroverted function is the one most visible to others, and thus Perceiving/Judging is a description of preference for dealing with the external world: in a more open-ended (Perceiving) or decisive (Judging) fashion.
    If we have too much extroversion, we are too dependent on external validation; too much introversion and we're too dependent on internal validation; too much perception and we're indecisive and unable to move forward; too much judgment and we're stubborn and unable to change course with new information.

    So in terms of coping with life in general, objective judgment is the best balance for subjective perception and vice versa. (Same for subjective judgment/objective perception.)


    2) You wanted to know what it is about Pi that makes it "judgmental."

    If this is what you meant, then you've made a mistake by assuming that being a "Judging" type in MBTI terms is supposed to imply that you're judgmental. It's not.

    I wasn't just mindlessly restating the definitions; I was trying to clear up the meaning of the term "Judging" in an MBTI context for you because you seem to have erroneously assumed that it implies a Judging type must be a judgmental person.

    That's what I was trying to tell you. I have not just been harping on circular definitional repetition; I've been trying to tell you that no one ever claimed that Pi or Pi-dominant people are "judgmental" in the first place. If you inferred that from MBTI's use of the term "Judging", then you've misinterpreted that term's meaning in this context.

    Myers designed the 4th MBTI letter to describe one's preferred attitude for dealing with the external world. So being a "Judger" in MBTI terms doesn't make you "judgmental"; literally, the only thing it means is that you prefer a "rational" attitude for dealing with the outer world.

    Note that nowhere is it stated or implied that Pi is "judgmental" or a Judging function. It's neither, and being a J type doesn't imply that it is.

    Is it mildly counterintuitive that "Introverted Judging" types are actually dominant in introverted perception? Yes, and that can be a little confusing at first, but the utility in looking at it that way is that we can freely refer to "NTJs" as one group of people using the same function orientations, regardless of which is dominant.

    If we use the Socionics method and take "Judger" to mean "someone who is dominant in a Judging process" (note that it does NOT carry this meaning in MBTI), then we have trouble elsewhere because an "NTj" could be an Ni/Te user or a Ti/Ne user depending on the first letter. We don't really know.

    Another advantage of MBTI's choice of meaning for words Judging/Perceiving is that each function can be aligned clearly with one particular combination of two type letters, which I find makes the relationship between types and functions easier to understand.

    If we use "Judging" to mean "dominant in a rational process" as it does in Socionics, then we can't make distinctions such as, "All NJs share Ni as dom/aux function" anymore because some NJs are Ni users and others are Ne users. It gets more confusing.


    Now, if neither of those is what you meant by your question, I'm all ears as to what it is you actually wanted to know, but I've reread the entire thread now and I think you've grossly misinterpreted my responses as nothing but circular repetition of definitions. That's not what I've been trying to say.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Can you pile any more undue condescension onto that post? You just figured out in the last week that all NJs share dom/aux Ni. Cut me some slack here and the favor will be returned.

    I believe you have made an error in the assumption that being a Judging type implies that one must be judgmental...so I don't understand why you're looking for a relationship between Pi+Je use and "judgmentalness." There isn't one.

    Did you want to know why Myers chose to label the rational processes "judgment" and the irrational ones "perception"?

    Or did you want to know what it is about Pi and Je that makes them work well together?

    Or something else?
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This is an extended version of what I said. It's also readily obvious if you know how functions work.

    Myers labeled Jung's rational functions as "Judgment" and his irrational ones as "Perception." This is because the rational functions use a linear, structured approach that focuses on evaluation of information, a decision or "judgment." This doesn't mean people who prefer these functions are judgmental and Myers didn't intend the term in that context. She designed the 4th letter of MBTI types to be a reflection of that person's dominant mode of extroversion.

    I know what you were looking for, Z...you wanted to know what characteristics of Pi can be described as "judgmental" and why. The answer is that there aren't any, because no one ever claimed that Pi is judgmental. Pi is not considered a Judging function and it has no judgmental properties. The only reason Pi+Je people are termed "Judgers" is that, in the context Myers intended when she coined those terms, the "Perceiving/Judging" label is only intended to describe the external approach...not the internal one.

    So, Pi+Je (and Je+Pi) types aren't labeled "Judgers" because they're judgmental; they're only labeled that way because Je's method of dealing with the external world is deliberate, methodical and focused on evaluating information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sim, I'll respond when I get home from work.

    For the moment, I'm just gunna chalk this up to you really not reading the thread thoroughly at all...
    You know, Sim, I actually apologize for this comment I made about you seemingly not having read the thread thoroughly, cuz, having now read your entire post, it's not really the one that deserved that accusation.

    I was at work and (ironically) only read the first section of your post.

    This post as a whole is actually far better than anything else you wrote in this thread.

    There's actually some worthwhile, new information here.

    That being said, the reason why I made the accusation (although, really, I was just making an excuse for you) was because last night and/or this morning, most of your posts seemed to reflect the fact that you weren't fully versed or up-to-date in the thread.

    Most all of your questions and answers seemed out of touch or out of time with the (at the time) present state of the thread.

    The same doesn't really hold for this post.

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