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  1. #101
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ExxJs would be the most judgmental.
    IxxJs would the second most.
    IxxPs would be the third most.
    and ExxPs would be the least judgmental.

    Does the same really go for perceptiveness?

    Would ExxPs be the most perceptive?
    Followed by IxxPs?
    Followed by IxxJs?
    Followed by ExxJs?

    It seems to work rather cleanly from most judgmental to least judgmental, but are IxxJs and ExxJs indeed less perceptive than ExxPs and IxxPs?

    I guess the question becomes: is perceiving really a thing-in-itself, or is it simply a lack of judging?
    except that in reality, its the IPs who are the most stubborn of all!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    You are using the wrong definition of "judgement" In MBTI terms, judging = likes closure and perceiving= likes options. However, judging does not equate to being "judgmental" and perceiving does not equate to being "perceptive".
    exactly! J =! judgmental

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I mean, ExxPs seem to much less judgmental (in the normal, everyday sense of the word) than your typical ExxJ, in my opinion.
    :confused: but Fi can be one of the most judgmental functions! And sensor Ti is basically "gut logic", which is as much a function of whim as Fi is!

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My experience is different. I find that EPs can be quite judgemental.
    He gets it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    while close-mindedness might be a P's form of "openness" (echh... the worst -- this is what I hate about some Ps... they think they're open-minded, when, in fact, they're close-minded as shit).
    Yep...ENFPs with rampant Fi

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post


    I wonder who you're talking about, here.

    I'm closed minded regarding a couple of subjects, why?

    Because what I believe in, (regarding these several subjects) happens to be categorically right.

    It's not even about me, it's about the TRUTH.

    exhibit A...her Fi has been violated

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    In fact, it's not; it is, as you said, deluded "open-mindedness".

    In the perception of the subject, they are open-minded; however, in truth, they are close-minded.

    I'm thinking of the close-minded ExFP who thinks she's open-minded because she believes in... hmm, let's say, gay marriage, for example... and she cannot imagine how anybody else could not have a different opinion about gay marriage, and, furthermore, that anyone who does have a different opinion must be close-minded.

    In this case, the ExFP might think she's open-minded, but, in reality, an open-minded person would be open to the idea that people could have differing opinions about gay marriage.

    Thus, her "open-mindedness" is actually close-mindedness.
    CLASSIC Fi closed mindedness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Loved your answer... this is Ni magic.
    Ni to the rescue...see at least a Ni person can simultaneously sit on the fence about issues, knowing "HOW" certain people believe certain things without just assuming the other person is evil, stupid or arrogant.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've run into this before. And it's not limited to any particular type, but is does seem to be an aspect of "P".

    There is no one so close-minded as someone who believes that oneself is open-minded. They listen to your opinion, consider it, and then inform you that they don't find it persuasive, or that they don't understand why you believe that your arguments imply your conclusion or any number of such things. In general, their response seems to indicate that you have the burden of proof, but of course, you can't prove jack to them.

    The "J" style is more about getting things done. Anything that gets in the way of getting things done must be resolved, and "J" types will engage in plenty of negotiation so long as they're willing to pay the price to accomplish a task. This may not precisely be "openminded," but one can easily see the grounds by which one might change their mind. The "P" style on the other hand typically doesn't have a task to accomplish, there is no particular leverage by which to get them to listen, they have nothing to lose by insisting on their particular beliefs.

    In function terms, Te and Fe are about interacting and sharing with other people. There is necessarily a give and take. Particular individuals might be stubborn, but they play by the give and the take if either Te or Fe predominates. Fi and Ti, however, have established core values and principles. Those principles do not whimsically change, in spite of the superficially whimsical nature of Fi and Ti (which is really the whimsical nature of Ne or Se).
    In summary, Fi blows.

  2. #102
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    To uumlau, aphrodite and zarathustra:

    Why does the Fi dominant clap in the same scenario (in your respective opinions)?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To uumlau, aphrodite and zarathustra:

    Why does the Fi dominant clap in the same scenario (in your respective opinions)?
    Wow.

    I don't wanna have the pretense to think that I know the answer to this question for sure.

    Never thought of it before...

    My quick hypothesis would be that, if they do clap in this scenario, it's because they either:

    a) feel the genuine desire to clap (Fi, or even Fe [I think the traditional non-Fe using F doms and auxs are more likely to use Fe than the traditional non Fe-using T doms and auxs])

    or

    b) don't feel the genuine desire to clap, but clap for some other ulterior reason than does the Fe user, such as their desire to not feel ostracized (which might hurt their Fi).

  4. #104
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Perhaps because the *why* does matter, so the two things are really not the same...

    As an INTJ, I certainly identify with what uumlau was saying, and I really don't think what he described is the same process an Fe-user engages in.

    I think Fe users feel a tug on their heart strings to follow the social rule and have a genuine desire to follow this tug, and thus follow it naturally -- something very different than what an INTJ feels when he merely mimics this behavior.
    You are making assumptions about Fe being the same for Fe dom/aux/tert. It isn't the same, hence the difficulty in understanding it and Fi. I have a genuine desire most of the time to engage with people how they need me to, whether that is along societal expectations, or our own made up rules at that point. But I also, in more of a group, or 'stranger' scenario follow general rules of etiquette and manners, for the most part. They are both Fe; extraverting to the object, which is a person or a group. The why doesn't matter, the fact that you are giving your energy outward to the object is what matters. If an Fi-er did this on a consistent basis, according to the description and definition of Fe, they'd be more of an Fe-er, not an Fi-er. It's what is mostly done, the behavior that is most often exhibited, regardless of WHY you think you do it (which you probably wouldn't know in the case of a tert function anyway, until one was older and wiser). In the case of a tert function, it can be tricky to figure out.


    The difference is in whether we feel a genuine desire to clap, or only clap due to our wanting to follow the general social rule so that our goals will not be compromised due to ostracization for not following the rule.

    Either one could be taking place at any one time, but, even when the former occurs, it's likely due to Fi (not Fe), and, when we do the latter, we, as uumlau said, try to feign Fe (or Fi) using our Te.

    In certain circumstances, however, perhaps under the influence of certain drugs, or for an INTJ who actually happens to genuinely use Fe (which I believe is very rare), we may actually use Fe in this scenario.

    I just don't think that's true in the vast majority of circumstances.
    I think the bottom line is what you have to go by to avoid definition overlap, is the action. What action does this person display overall? No matter the motivation or feeling behind it. If the action is extraverted, it is Fe.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To uumlau, aphrodite and zarathustra:

    Why does the Fi dominant clap in the same scenario (in your respective opinions)?

    I notice you ask lots of questions, but rarely answer questions. Why is that?

    Since clapping is done in a social context, I'd wager that the Fi-er is using Fe at that point. Just like most Fe-ers use Fi at some times. I think I said that if someone, most of the time, knew they should clap but didn't because they simply didn't feel like it, that's Fi, or unhealthy Fe; Fe turned inward to self.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think the bottom line is what you have to go by to avoid definition overlap; the action. What action does this person display overall? No matter the motivation or feeling behind it. If the action is extraverted, it is Fe.
    Well, I guess we just disagree.

    Just because it's more difficult when you bring motivation into the picture, doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do.

    This reminds me of the story of the man who was looking around on the floor for something when a stranger asked, "What are you looking for?"

    He replied, "I dropped a quarter in the closet."

    The stranger replied, "Well, then why are you looking for it out here?"

    The man replied, "Cuz it's too dark in the closet to find it."

  6. #106
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    Furthermore, this whole "extraverting" business you speak of wreaks of the action being predicated by a genuine desire, which, in my opinion, is really not the case in the "ulterior motive" scenarios I've described (for both INTJs and INFPs).

  7. #107
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To uumlau, aphrodite and zarathustra:

    Why does the Fi dominant clap in the same scenario (in your respective opinions)?
    Let's see if I can put things together a bit more, because, as you've noted PB, identifying an action as arising from a single function is like unbaking a cake.

    The main reason I used clapping as an example is that it is a very very simple rule that everyone knows. So, everyone claps.

    I may very well be very moved and clap enthusiastically, but let's face it, most live performances are mediocre, or simply aren't something in which one is interested. So, I'll clap, but it feels "completely fake." It's just there because it's supposed to be there. I don't "feel like clapping." I just do it, just cuz.

    I would imagine an Fi dom would feel similarly. However, being "dom" would imply that one is perhaps more likely to do exactly as one feels. So if one really feels like clapping, then one claps, and if one doesn't feel like clapping, one doesn't clap, and doesn't care about any peer pressure to clap. This is, to be sure, an extreme example, and in my experience there is a decent amount of "Fe" to be found in any reasonably mature Fi dom. And there is of course the problem of trying to unbake the cake. If one claps, is one "using Fi" "using Te" or "using Fe"? I'm not IxFP, so I really can't tell you what went into the cake, as I could for my personal example.

    My speculation with respect to Fe is that Fe would clap and cheer because the object isn't simply just to express appreciation for the quality of the performance, but to encourage the performers, to send positive vibes, etc., even if the performance is "bad." That there is a motivation to clap for a bad/mediocre performance beyond "just following the rules of politeness." I've known strong Fe types to smile and clap and put on a show of support, and then tell me in private that they thought the performance was awful.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #108
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    And more importantly, what does this all have to do with the purpose of this thread?!?


  9. #109
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^Threads are like trees; they grow branches, intertwine ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #110
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And more importantly, what does this all have to do with the purpose of this thread?!?

    Hmm, I think the topics between your thread and AGA's threads are blurring in my mind. They're mildly related in that AGA is sure that INTJs use Fe, not Fi. The same way that Pi goes with Je and Pe goes with Ji, Te goes with Fi and Fe goes with Ti. Yet AGA seems certain that Te and Fe go together, which breaks the whole pattern.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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