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  1. #91
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I guess I have a problem with this cleansing [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Night?
    I'm comfortable with the pruning.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    "Hwa is thet mei thet hors wettrien the him self nule drinken."
    My alteration:

    "You can lead an INTJ to Fe, but you can't make him give a damn."


  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Enjoy your party. Table for one, sir?
    No, everyone's invited...

    Except onemoretime.

  4. #94
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    Tesla, could you bring this thread back on track?

  5. #95
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    Here's where I'd like to get back to:
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock
    If you're wondering why Je-ers can't also be Pe-ers and why Ji-ers can't also be Pi-ers, I'd say it's due to a cognitive inconsistency between Pi/Ji and Pe/Je that just doesn't compute well. It doesn't make any sense for someone to simultaneously see the environment as something to empirically evaluate before garnering an impression (Je) while also responding immediately to it, according to momentary sense impressions, before understanding it empirically (Pe). Likewise, it doesn't make sense to build an internal construct that's derived subjectively (Ji) while also building an internal construct that's made from external information (Pi).
    Quote Originally Posted by zarathustra
    Now here's the controversial part, which uumlau points to in his next question (and which Sim provides a good answer to in his post).

    Before this part of your post, everything rang with absolute truth.

    In this paragraph, that ringing stopped sounding so true...

    The words that I've bolded just don't carry much force.

    I'm not sure whether they lack force because they aren't necessarily representationally true, and thus you're having a hard time making a strong case about this part of the theory, or whether you are actually capable of a strong explanation of these matters, but just got tired or lazy.

    And with regards to the latter two sentences: don't we rather regularly talk about PeJe and PiJi loops?

    (Note: I see you address these in your post directly above this one, and I think your claim about how they relate to healthy/unhealthy cognition and mental productivity/unproductiveness has a load of merit to it.)
    I know you said in your most recent post that I seemed content with your healthy/unhealthy cognition and mental productivity/unproductiveness, but, in all reality, I'm just getting my chops wet on this topic.

    Why do you think it is that Pi/Ji and Pe/Je combination would produce unhealthy cognition and mental unproductiveness?

    Do you think this would be more in reference to an aux/dom combination with these characteristics, or do you think it is an unhealthy/unproductive combination regardless of functional position?

    Any other thoughts on the matter?

  6. #96
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, everyone's invited...

    Except onemoretime.
    I'm soooooooo... no, can't even be sarcastic about it.

    Enjoy your one-man party.

  7. #97
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    Onemoretime: the only people I've had issues with on this forum have been you, Ape, and Lex Talionis.

    Interesting company you find yourself in...

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sorry to offend you. You're right - there's no excusing the incivility.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm soooooooo... no, can't even be sarcastic about it.

    Enjoy your one-man party.
    Seems you're going right back to your strong point, too: disingenuous apologies...

  9. #99
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's one of the key points of your ideas and worth discussing.

    I believe that you are mistaking the "rule following" that Te does for communication to be Fe. INTJ is essentially "pantomiming" Fe. We know what polite behavior looks like, but we don't actually understand it the same way. Here's a simplistic example: a young child might know a rule such as "when a performance is done, you're supposed to clap." It has nothing to do with why you clap, it's just the rule. There's no understanding of the Fe part, that you clap to show appreciation, and that you adjust how you clap based on how good the performance was. It's just "you're supposed to clap." If you pay attention to INTJs, they're following "rules," not actually reading situations for an appropriate response.
    Thank you.

    I don't consider INTJs rule followers, per se. I know you know the rules, backwards and forwards, but it's really up to your discretion of your Ni and other facets of your psyche and individual variations that make someone a rule follower or breaker. You know what polite behavior is, and you use it because you are adept at Fe. It need not be convoluted such as going through Te and all that. As a tertiary function, if you were Fi more than Fe, Fi would simply show up more. And I don't see that, unless one of you is stressed for some reason, or arguing vigorously, for example. Sure, I get that Fe and Te could work together, mine do, but it's simply that. It's easy for Te and Fe to work together, and difficult for Te and Fi, or Fe and Ti to work together.

    I stated on the other thread that Fe and Ti don't jive at all. Do you really think when you are extraverting thinking that you are likely to introvert feeling on a regular basis? The two are antithesis to each other, I'd think. I know Fe and Ti are. If I'm Fe-ing, I'm not Ti-ing, and vice versa with Te and Fi.

    You wouldn't understand Fe like an Fe dom or aux would. I don't understand Te like you do, do I? I appreciate your example. it's exactly what I'm talking about, and would expect in using Fe as a healthy teriary function. The *why* doesn't matter. The action of following through on a consistent basis with the clapping is Fe, no matter the motivation. If a child is made to clap and does it once because his mom is watching, that means nothing. If the child internalizes the behavior and uses it consistently, that is Fe. If the child knows he should clap but doesn't feel like clapping, and therefore rarely claps, that is either not Fe, or it is unhealthy Fe (i'm afraid to say it's Fi ). My point is that it is not *why* the person does the behavior necessarily, it is the act itself that is important and a manifestation of Fe. This, actually, is a good description of Jung's Fe definition, which is fitting because he was a T himself; that Fe is about knowing the rules of society and using them. If you are doing that, why must we twist it around Te, and not just call it what it is?
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    My point is that it is not *why* the person does the behavior necessarily, it is the act itself that is important and a manifestation of Fe.

    If you are doing that, why must we twist it around Te, and not just call it what it is?
    Perhaps because the *why* does matter, so the two things are really not the same...

    As an INTJ, I certainly identify with what uumlau was saying, and I really don't think what he described is the same process an Fe-user engages in.

    I think Fe users feel a tug on their heart strings to follow the social rule and have a genuine desire to follow this tug, and thus follow it naturally -- something very different than what an INTJ feels when he merely mimics this behavior.

    The difference is in whether we feel a genuine desire to clap, or only clap due to our wanting to follow the general social rule so that our goals will not be compromised due to ostracization for not following the rule.

    Either one could be taking place at any one time, but, even when the former occurs, it's likely due to Fi (not Fe), and, when we do the latter, we, as uumlau said, try to feign Fe (or Fi) using our Te.

    In certain circumstances, however, perhaps under the influence of certain drugs, or for an INTJ who actually happens to genuinely use Fe (which I believe is very rare), we may actually use Fe in this scenario.

    I just don't think that's true in the vast majority of circumstances.

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