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  1. #31
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Okay so perhaps I'm nagging about this now but as different thinking occurs I post different things.... Right, an INTP who is forced to sort something out will engage parts of their shadow. It seems to me that in such a situation an INTPs thinking will closely match that of an ENTJ (if they can handle the situation). An ENTP being definitive is very similar to an INTJ and an INTJ who is trying to be spontaneous with people is more ENTP. I'm wondering what people think about such crude pairings. My theory fits this model but I'm not sure if anyone else can see it or if there's other theories which are similar.
    First, mistletoe, allow me a tangent: you do strike as rather ENTPish sometimes.

    You're saying two things in your hypothesis here which I find interesting:
    1) That we are attracted to our shadow sides, and 2) subconsciously/consciously revert to it under pressure.

    Your hypothesis sounds logical as a start - If you follow social psychology, we tend to mimic the behaviour of those we want to be loved by. Ergo under pressure to be accepted, could it be we subconsciously mimic our shadow to be accepted?

    But if the audience is not the shadow type, would you then engage the shadow still, or rather, would you/anyone as a balanced type, engage what works?

    Some part of all traits exist in everyone, so my counter-hypothesis to your theory of reversion/engagement of one type as a shadow self, is simply it would not allow some situations to be resolved. Behaviour modification to achieve our ends would mean we could adopt any traits changeably, not just our shadow traits. It is a question of how difficult the adaptation, merely. But I hesitate to say it is impossible.

    Back to your topic:
    An INTJ is Ni, Te, Fi, Se.
    ENTP: Ne, Ti, Fe, Si.

    In theory:
    For me to say the shadow is engaged, it'd mean I retreat into myself under pressure to try shape things the way I want it, strategizing to create a logical framework that'll work in the current world, I won't give a damn what you feel except as important to me, and lose touch with reality, in a way.

    In practice:
    My E/I is borderline, and my T/F and J/P are both moderate. I score moderate on all cognitive functions, except low Si and low Se. The only area I'm clear in is the N. At work, I'm constantly under pressure. But feelings count a lot to get things done. Under stress,

    - I tend retain the Ne very strongly.
    - I chose Te to work with as I have to convince others of something, and follow their arguments to find the points of contention
    - But feelings matter to get things done, as an argument with more emotional appeal tends to work better: Fe.
    - I always try for Se to retain a sense of grounding.

    I'm not sure what type that is, but it is not INTJ.

    Perhaps a flaw in the MBTI as Magic pointed out somewhere was that for some reason, you cannot get e.g. Ne, Te, Fe, Se. (etc - you can work out the combis which are not possible in the MBTI).

    Though theoretically, I'm not sure why that doesn't work. (Actually, I'm not sure how do you derive the 4 main processes of each type, short of memorizing it? )

    Ergo I think your theory will not hold should a type be well developed, or flexible, simply. I feel there are too much variables to say that one type will work in all kinds of conflict, and I think any balanced types would choose the processes which gets them what they want.

    Personally I think you'd be difficult to type. Rampant intelligence unfocused. Kinda like my sister. I'm not sure how it works but I think with ENFJs they pick up so much from delving around in other's heads and problems that they possibly pick up a little of everything
    I did a mini deconstruction of this little firedragon on her blog, you can go see. It is not a lack of focus, but a need to burn/be absorbed, I feel, and a lack of grounding via Se. I agree with you on the picking up thing.

    ENTPs seem to be a good match for ISFJ. They play well together from what I've seen of the ENTP-ISFJ friendship we have in our little group. One brings out the silliness in the other whilst both agree on social musts. INFJ-ENTP I'd have thought would bring problems. Hell NT-NF in general I'd think would be fraught with problems. Something about the SF and the NF getting cross wired a lot.
    I generally don't work with Ses well. I get frustrated having to explain everything and lay out my thinking and explain why I see this possibility, they do not prefer to follow tangents, then the feelings are easily hurt, and I start to feel bad for being me, and feel bad for not feeling bad about it.

    An INTJ reaction would've been to just tell them to stuff it up where the sun don't shine. But usually I take a deep breath and lay out point by bloody point and hold their hands and keep a smile on.

    You only do ENTP when you deliberately choose to? Sounds like an INTJ to me (kidding)
    As an ENTP, I basically take on whatever trait is necessary? Do you think that is more INTJ? - I think the transmutability of an ENTP is more than most types in the MBTI.

    If I flip your question around then, mistletoe, which type is likely to stay most true to type under changing circumstances?
    Last edited by white; 12-14-2007 at 03:29 AM. Reason: to not allow X more toeholds. He's gonna pick me apart.

  2. #32
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Attraction to shadow sides... to let loose? or become something "opposite" from who we are, yet still manageable in order to better accomplish something?

    A lot of examples Ps gives here relates to needing some resemblance of order to get stuff done. The extroverting for introverts and introversion for extroverts I think is obvious.

    For myself I tend to go through Ne -> Ni -> Ti -> Fe Because Ni happens inside my head, on the surface it appears like ENTP with a strong flavor of Fe...

    Adaptability... works well in my case. I would think it'll apply to most people.

    Functions we pick must be different enough from our main ones... yet will not interfere with our dominant function, for the dominant function cannot be shut off. So Ni for me is always running... I need an extroverted perceiving function to deal with people... Ni can't stand Se... so I get Ne. That in a sense puts me on a semi-imbalance stance... to stablize it, I use Ti and Fe which I am familiar with.

    *shakes head* What a mess of words. I applaud anybody who can make sense of what I said...

    If I flip your question around then, mistletoe, which type is likely to stay most true to type under changing circumstances?
    So according to that... no one type will stay most true to type... rather people who are uncomfortable with the use of their auxillary and tertiary functions will more likely stay "true to type".

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    First, mistletoe, allow me a tangent: you do strike as rather ENTPish sometimes.
    Many have said that I'm an extroverted NTP, they only quit after thay meet me. Some things do not translate well on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    You're saying two things in your hypothesis here which I find interesting:
    1) That we are attracted to our shadow sides, and 2) subconsciously/consciously revert to it under pressure.
    Right, rather than "pick you apart" let me correct this core miss assumption.

    1. People CAN be attracted to their shadows or to those who display functions in which they themselves are weak but I feel that attraction is the least predictable of facets. I've been attracted to many people and some INTPs, it's just not a predictable facet in such a way...in my opinion.

    2. When under pressure is a poor description of the circumstances necessary to make a person flip to their second string congnitive wiring.

    My personal theory is not that a well balanced person should flip to this second type under pressure and nor is it that when a person flips that they are identical to people for whom it is their first preference. My theory is simply that for a person to become well balanced that they should try to learn the lessons which their second string type can teach. For myself this meant learning how to construct plans which work and then ensure their execution rather than just coming up with concepts in isolation and without care for if they are committed to or not.

    A well balanced person has already learned some of the uses of their second string and shadow types, though this is not necessarily true depending upon the path they took to balance.

    Basically the whole theory is based on what type would be the best for INTPs to learn from both from the point of view of ease of learning and of progression.
    Last edited by Xander; 12-17-2007 at 05:24 AM.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    1. People CAN be attracted to their shadows or to those who display functions in which they themselves are weak but I feel that attraction is the least predictable of facets. I've been attracted to many people and some INTPs, it's just not a predictable facet in such a way...in my opinion.
    People are attracted to those who are similar but slightly different. There's been enough psyc studies done on that. Type isn't the only attribute people have... so no don't suppose it'll be a good predictor by itself.

    My theory is simply that for a person to become well balanced that they should try to learn the lessons which their second string type can teach.

    Basically the whole theory is based on what type would be the best for INTPs to learn from both from the point of view of ease of learning and of progression.
    Then you've answered your own question...

    Functions listed from 1 to 8...
    dominant, auxillary, shadow to dominant, shadow to auxiliary, tertiary, shadow to tert, inferior, shadow to inferior

    So for INTP: Ti, Ne, Te, Ni, Se, Si, Fe, Fi

    Just move that the list as you learn...

  5. #35
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Then you've answered your own question...

    Functions listed from 1 to 8...
    dominant, auxillary, shadow to dominant, shadow to auxiliary, tertiary, shadow to tert, inferior, shadow to inferior

    So for INTP: Ti, Ne, Te, Ni, Se, Si, Fe, Fi

    Just move that the list as you learn...
    Okay.

    Question #1
    Where did you get that function order from?
    INTP = Ti, Ne, Te, Ni, Se, Fi, Si, Fe as far as I recall.

    Question #2

    If we use your model then there is no type to follow after ENTJ and if we use the model as I've put it then the order would be INTP -> ENTJ -> ESFP -> ESFJ. Now I can see it as far as ENTJ but then ESFP to ESFJ??? ESFJ should be easier by far and why would ESFP be of any advantage?

    Oh and to answer the question you didn't ask. I'm using types not functions because to try and learn one function, to me, is as much folly as it is trying to type someone by trying to work out each "switch". Types and cognitive wiring are big picture things and such narrow approaches seem more prone to failure. Also it is easier to mimic at first and then learn if you have a complete personality to mimic.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #36
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I'm loathed to realise that it's taken me this long to figure out why people were thinking this was about couples and types.. damn titles.

    Right additional thought.

    ENTJ is Te, Ni, Se, Fi right?
    Well an INTPs functions go at either end of those. So in effect by looking at an ENTJ you are changing 1-2-3-4 to 2-1-4-3 (where's Wildcat?). Now this by itself is just the pattern and means little in isolation but if you consider that the INTP upon analysing/ observing/ mimicking the ENTJ can see the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats of that type. Would they not compensate for the downside (as much as is possible) and enhance the upside? In effect would this not lead to simplistic Te & Ni but perhaps better Se & Fi? Would it allow the INTP to learn more of Se & Fi through a process mirrored in the Johari window theory?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #37
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Question #1
    Where did you get that function order from?
    INTP = Ti, Ne, Te, Ni, Se, Fi, Si, Fe as far as I recall.
    Never thought somebody would seriously entertain my random nonsense. Where did I get that order from... hmmm well it's the function development sequence from god knows where. Bebee? I think that's it. I could have switched the order of the 3rd and the 4th though.

    Question #2
    If we use your model then there is no type to follow after ENTJ and if we use the model as I've put it then the order would be INTP -> ENTJ -> ESFP -> ESFJ. Now I can see it as far as ENTJ but then ESFP to ESFJ??? ESFJ should be easier by far and why would ESFP be of any advantage?
    Well you can look at it that way... or look at it simply as mixing of functions.
    It's easier for me to use INFJ (myself) as an example. Please excuse the anecdotal description.

    INFJ -> Ni Fe Ne Fi Ti Te Se Si

    Ni Fe... those two are automatically acquired.
    Ne and Fi... I've learnt to associate them with Ni and Fe when I was in highschool? There abouts... mostly in support of Ni and Fe.

    I learn of MBTI in college and only have started truly to understand functions after joining INTPc. The first natural thing to practice on is Ti. It being the supposable tertiary. Because it's the direct opposite of Fe. I had to shut off/ignore Fe and pair Ti with Ni. A complete inversion that doesn't balance itself very well... that pulls in Te to a slight extend... but not much. Externally this looks like INTJ but it's really running on Ti. You just can't observe it from the outside.

    That phrase lasted for several months before I felt myself semi dissociate. I switched out of Ti... boosted Fe back... hoping to find a better balance with extroversion. I'm not comfortable with trying Se yet... that left Ne to play with. Ne needs to be paired with a judging function. Most of that is handled via Ti I suspect. That gives you semi ENTP.

    I'm not a T though, and an extreme introvert. Ne can't pair well with Fe... Perhaps it flips over to Fi. That would be XNFP.

    Last one I don't want to tackle with yet is Se. Ideally you want a firm enough grip with introverted judging... Ti or Fi, then withdraw Ne while substituting in Se. What do you get out of this? Ummm ISXP?

    Finally Si will put me back to Fe... ISFJ, the full circle. Not that I suspect I'll progress all the way along this whole thing but that's the scheme of things.

    Oh and to answer the question you didn't ask. I'm using types not functions because to try and learn one function, to me, is as much folly as it is trying to type someone by trying to work out each "switch". Types and cognitive wiring are big picture things and such narrow approaches seem more prone to failure. Also it is easier to mimic at first and then learn if you have a complete personality to mimic.
    To me, it's impossible to learn to use the function in isolation. Rather I pair it with something else familiar yet group well with it. So introverted judgment with extroverted perception, extroverted judgment with introverted perception. Ni Ti only worked for a short while because I'm so used to living in my head. That is essentially the same as your learning by types. Except this case I picked them based on functions where as you picked them based on practicality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ENTJ is Te, Ni, Se, Fi right?
    Well an INTPs functions go at either end of those. So in effect by looking at an ENTJ you are changing 1-2-3-4 to 2-1-4-3 (where's Wildcat?).
    I thought this order has already been established in your theory?

    Introvert switch to extroverted mode... Perceiver to Judging mode to get organized. Aka people/task control. You have the reverse for extroverts and judgers.

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Never thought somebody would seriously entertain my random nonsense. Where did I get that order from... hmmm well it's the function development sequence from god knows where. Bebee? I think that's it. I could have switched the order of the 3rd and the 4th though.
    I always thought the processes had a kind of reversed pattern to it...I could be wrong. I've just never seen anyone split the tertiary and the inferior like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Well you can look at it that way... or look at it simply as mixing of functions.
    Either way though aren't you creating either a synthetic version of an existing type or actually making something that isn't a personality at all?

    For example if I tried to combine Ne and Te then wouldn't you expect it to be firstly difficult to learn and secondly not realistic/ not helpful? After all I could pretend to be James Bond but that'd be a bit silly.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that in terms of developing yourself are you not better to study complete people rather than one particular facet so you get an understanding of the facet in context?
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    It's easier for me to use INFJ (myself) as an example. Please excuse the anecdotal description.

    INFJ -> Ni Fe Ne Fi Ti Te Se Si

    Ni Fe... those two are automatically acquired.
    Ne and Fi... I've learnt to associate them with Ni and Fe when I was in highschool? There abouts... mostly in support of Ni and Fe.

    I learn of MBTI in college and only have started truly to understand functions after joining INTPc. The first natural thing to practice on is Ti. It being the supposable tertiary. Because it's the direct opposite of Fe. I had to shut off/ignore Fe and pair Ti with Ni. A complete inversion that doesn't balance itself very well... that pulls in Te to a slight extend... but not much. Externally this looks like INTJ but it's really running on Ti. You just can't observe it from the outside.
    Interesting. I'd pegged you as more INTJ. Must be an NTJ thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    That phrase lasted for several months before I felt myself semi dissociate. I switched out of Ti... boosted Fe back... hoping to find a better balance with extroversion. I'm not comfortable with trying Se yet... that left Ne to play with. Ne needs to be paired with a judging function. Most of that is handled via Ti I suspect. That gives you semi ENTP.

    I'm not a T though, and an extreme introvert. Ne can't pair well with Fe... Perhaps it flips over to Fi. That would be XNFP.

    Last one I don't want to tackle with yet is Se. Ideally you want a firm enough grip with introverted judging... Ti or Fi, then withdraw Ne while substituting in Se. What do you get out of this? Ummm ISXP?

    Finally Si will put me back to Fe... ISFJ, the full circle. Not that I suspect I'll progress all the way along this whole thing but that's the scheme of things.
    Actually it sounds like you've gone from INFJ to ENFP then moved to ESTP but kept enough of your NF preference to continue to function with intuition. Coming at it from the "wrong" end as it were would change how your ESTP attributes would manifest.

    The whole looking like an INTJ sounds very much like the incisive T of an ESTP combined with the sheer unreadability of an INFJ to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    To me, it's impossible to learn to use the function in isolation. Rather I pair it with something else familiar yet group well with it. So introverted judgment with extroverted perception, extroverted judgment with introverted perception. Ni Ti only worked for a short while because I'm so used to living in my head. That is essentially the same as your learning by types. Except this case I picked them based on functions where as you picked them based on practicality.
    We're arguing the same point there. Functions are not really something you can study in isolation as they are meaningless without the context provided by the rest of the personality. This is why I think it doesn't work if you try and combine "incorrect" pairs of functions like Ne and Te, the context is missing, the functions are wrong. However it is possible to switch between Ni/Te and Ti/Ne without too much trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I thought this order has already been established in your theory?
    I'm more highlighting the pattern more so than anything else. I was looking at the function orders and noticed how it fitted together so neatly (that's also why I think it's wrong oddly enough).
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Introvert switch to extroverted mode... Perceiver to Judging mode to get organized. Aka people/task control. You have the reverse for extroverts and judgers.
    Note that IP and EJ share something in common, they both have the judging function as the primary function.

    What relevance that is I am unsure of at present.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I always thought the processes had a kind of reversed pattern to it...I could be wrong. I've just never seen anyone split the tertiary and the inferior like that.
    Well you put them a couple of ways...

    1 2 3 4 1s 2s 3s 4s <- that makes no sense to me seeing as inferior function shouldn't be stronger than your dominant's shadow...

    1 2 1s 2s 3 4 3s 4s <- this I'm guessing is what you're familiar with? I found it easier to access 3s in comparison to 4.

    1 2 1s 2s 3 3s 4 4s <- This pattern fits for me as least in terms of looking back at how functions developed for me.

    Either way though aren't you creating either a synthetic version of an existing type or actually making something that isn't a personality at all?

    For example if I tried to combine Ne and Te then wouldn't you expect it to be firstly difficult to learn and secondly not realistic/ not helpful? After all I could pretend to be James Bond but that'd be a bit silly.
    *nods* In agreement with you that it's the same thing looked upon from two different perspectives. You can call it synthetic versions of existing types... or simply exercise for function use. I look at it as simply exercises incorporated into daily life, but mostly it's mimicking of other types. If I interact a lot with a certain type, I tend to pick up their functions. Learning by osmosis.

    Ne Te would not work well at all. Ideally you practice with Ne Ti or Ni Te. I got away with Ni Ti mostly because Ni is my dominant and I'm used to living in my head. So for INTP... hmmm Ti Ne Si Fe... You can try Te Si or Te Ni. Chances are Te Si would be easier than Te Ni with two shadows. The point of pairing is for function development more than strict practical use of the pseudos-type. Now what good is mimicking an ESTJ? Reality check most likely... pull you out from your mind to interact with the world.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that in terms of developing yourself are you not better to study complete people rather than one particular facet so you get an understanding of the facet in context?
    The issue becomes muddled up when I explain it. It's study of facet based on actual people I interact with. For example Ti was from INTPs, Ne from ENTP and INFP. Except instead of merely imitating them, I incorporated what I think I see in "them" into my existing repertoire of functions. Otherwise it'll just be imitation, superficial and does not last.

    Interesting. I'd pegged you as more INTJ. Must be an NTJ thing.

    Actually it sounds like you've gone from INFJ to ENFP then moved to ESTP but kept enough of your NF preference to continue to function with intuition. Coming at it from the "wrong" end as it were would change how your ESTP attributes would manifest.

    The whole looking like an INTJ sounds very much like the incisive T of an ESTP combined with the sheer unreadability of an INFJ to me.
    Funny... I have some people peg me as INFP, others INXJ, although the way I play with functions can confuse people.

    ESTP! Se Ti? with intuition? That sounds Care to explain that one more fully?

  10. #40
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Well you put them a couple of ways...

    1 2 3 4 1s 2s 3s 4s <- that makes no sense to me seeing as inferior function shouldn't be stronger than your dominant's shadow...

    1 2 1s 2s 3 4 3s 4s <- this I'm guessing is what you're familiar with? I found it easier to access 3s in comparison to 4.

    1 2 1s 2s 3 3s 4 4s <- This pattern fits for me as least in terms of looking back at how functions developed for me.
    Oh there was a long thread on the exacting order of the functions. Me and Wildcat went through it on the previous incarnation of MBTI Central.

    Personally I prefer the following order (it's the INTP one cause that's just the one I'm most familiar with.

    Ti, Ne, Te, Ni, Se, Fi, Si, Fe

    Not sure how typical that ordering is but there seems to be a lot of disagreement about the function order outside of the first two.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    *nods* In agreement with you that it's the same thing looked upon from two different perspectives. You can call it synthetic versions of existing types... or simply exercise for function use. I look at it as simply exercises incorporated into daily life, but mostly it's mimicking of other types. If I interact a lot with a certain type, I tend to pick up their functions. Learning by osmosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Ne Te would not work well at all. Ideally you practice with Ne Ti or Ni Te. I got away with Ni Ti mostly because Ni is my dominant and I'm used to living in my head. So for INTP... hmmm Ti Ne Si Fe... You can try Te Si or Te Ni. Chances are Te Si would be easier than Te Ni with two shadows. The point of pairing is for function development more than strict practical use of the pseudos-type. Now what good is mimicking an ESTJ? Reality check most likely... pull you out from your mind to interact with the world.
    Or just to experience another persons perspective so you may better understand how things came to be the way they are and how they may progress.

    I agree though the pairings should be workable ones otherwise you are in part fantasising which is often not helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    The issue becomes muddled up when I explain it. It's study of facet based on actual people I interact with. For example Ti was from INTPs, Ne from ENTP and INFP. Except instead of merely imitating them, I incorporated what I think I see in "them" into my existing repertoire of functions. Otherwise it'll just be imitation, superficial and does not last.
    After yesterday's revelations on the differences between IJ and IP I would just nod but I think we do this differently. You describe it how I would though and I agree with the principles.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Funny... I have some people peg me as INFP, others INXJ, although the way I play with functions can confuse people.
    I tend to find people more T ish the more reserved they are. As soon as I'd spoken to you...well I say speak I mean write... in the chatroom you lost the whole T for me. I guess the whole posting hours apart from the other person is just not as personal so everyone becomes more T ish.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    ESTP! Se Ti? with intuition? That sounds Care to explain that one more fully?
    ESTP is focused on something specific regardless of context. If you can know that there is context but still focus on one element then that's N going to S. My SO is beginning to pick up intuition (don't worry I don't pat heron the head or anything like that ) and she has at points read people as an INFJ would seem to. However she's still basing the analysis on one or multiple concrete examples and that's S to N.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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