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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The definition of happiness is variable and/or elusive. For any corporation to claim "happier" people have certain percentages of x, y, and z from their model—such as the Five Factor Model— is ludicrous.
    I've already agreed to this.

    Let's say I hand out a questionnaire to this entire forum and ask them how happy they are on a scale of one to ten. If every individual answers honestly, they will go off of their own definition (or God forbid, how they actually feel) and rate accordingly. The outcome of the questionnaire will still be representative of that population. All of those definitions of happiness lead to the end result. I, as the test maker, did not tamper with the definition.

    Any test maker with half a brain would design their test that way. It's not like they would stamp some universal formula for happiness on whatever they're talking about.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    If person A's definition of happiness is raping gerbils, and person B's definition of happiness is baking cookies, I have no interest in hearing any claims pertaining to "happier" people.


  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If person A's definition of happiness is raping gerbils, and person B's definition of happiness is baking cookies, I have no interest in hearing any claims pertaining to "happier" people.

    Fear not. No one's trying to plant happiness microchips in your brain!

  4. #44
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adambrown View Post
    My name is Adam Brown. The Netherlands. 26 years old. Currently finishing my master degree in Pscyhology. Fascinated by human potential.

    Change is pretty easy, even changing deeply rooted patterns is doable and it can be done in a reasonable amount of time. Jung theory's presumes a basis that cognitive process preference is innate. Don't crystallize it, he might have changed his opinion with the in genius tools that are available today.

    Listen carefully, for what follows is a sacred truth: Change occurs rapidly when past forms are discarded. Instead of trying to patch up and repair the rotting church of your assigned identity, simply… leave. Leave the safe confines; ignore the warnings of the preacher that is your superego; go and explore. Your soul is beautiful and diverse. Have you taken the time to appreciate its full beauty?

    If we would look at change 'tools', we find a whole range of tools that allow one to change and to grow. (I am taking core change) Below some interesting onces I used( some of these tools are to be used in combination)

    - Deep Trance Identification ( Hypnosis )

    - Time line therapy

    - General manipulation of ‘Consciousness’

    - Neo-Reichian psychotherapy ( etc.. )

    - Controlled psychedelic and dissociative drug use

    Experiments on myself:

    - General manipulation of ‘Consciousness’ . I developed my intuition (Auxiliary) and 'anchored' myself into that, this instead of my previous sensing side. I am still Dominant extroverted thinking. Tests have shown that my Intuitive side is currently better developed then my sensing side.


    Experiments on a friend:

    - Tested as ISFP ( tested 2x and one time through an MBTI® Master Practitioner )

    - Used the first 4 tools above. Changed from ISFP to ENTJ in 2 years. My friend is running his own company at the moment with 60 +/- employees.

    - Currently tested ENTJ ( tested 2x and one time through an MBTI® Master Practitioner)
    tests only measure the outcome of personality, the outcome changes, but the core of personality((function order)/personality as described by jung) grows. it takes new directions, due to adaptation to new situations and past experiences, people learn new ways of acting out(persona changes) in situations, adaptation styles change.
    you are looking at the ego(jungian term, not freudian) growth there, but ego isnt the same as personality(you should know that being psychology student too), this also fools MBTI tests, like persona, but neither are the personality type.

    about that ISFP friend of yours turning to ENTJ, is just ISFP developing his Ni(tert) Te(inferior) and learning to adapt to external world in the same way as extravert does. its also typical to overestimate the new aspects of ego on self report tests, so as he has developed this shadow side(ENTJ) of his, he will answer the test in more ENTJ fashion than what he actually might be. thats because this new side of him is so different from how he has been used of seeing the self, its sort of overcompensation of new traits because they require more conscious efforts compared to rooted ISFP ways, because those traits go against the old ego self. this is growing, not changing, the changes are only superficial, because they are growth of ego(assimilating new traits to conscious self) and changes adaptations. what is in the conscious self(ego) is only a small part of whole self.

    for example if you take INTP who havent developed his Si and Fe, only so little of these functions are in the ego that they mainly work in the unconscious and the INTP doesent even see that those traits are part of him. as he develops those functions, they become larger part of ego, thus bringing the function to awareness and available for ego to use. now as the INTP develops his Si and Fe the ego grows. if the would develop Ne for example, so much that it seems that the person has turned into ENTP, its just that he has learned to adapt to external world using his Ne very well. but what does not change is the function order, aux function supports dominant by giving it ideas etc. this is something that wont change, for INTP its the Ne supporting Ti, even tho Ne would have been developed so much that it looks to be more there than Ti when seen from the outside. for ENTP its the Ti that is supporting Ne.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Even people who are Limbic can be happy, in fact some might even claim to feel happiness "more intensely" when they experience or something than Calms. I've also met some really angry, stressed-out Organized people.

    What makes one person happy might make another miserable. Plus, contentment or satisfaction is far more likely than happiness, which tends to come in spurts.
    yes, exactly. i'm Limbic and i'd say happy/content >50% of the time. i get high on life!

    i hate the global 5 because there are clearly "better" and "worse" traits. i have no interest in ranking people.

    i'm inclined to say that one's MBTI type does not usually change over time because of the stability of genetics plus very, very ingrained thought patterns, which snowball from a very early age into world conceptualization, values, and behavior patterns. however, i would assume that major psychological trauma could change type.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Absurd. Even assuming these are the key elements, which I don't, a lot of these are debatable.

    I'll give you the sociable.

    Agreeable over egocentric could be T or P over F. People who operate on reason general don't get their egos hurt or bolstered as easily and are agreeable as long something makes sense. Even then, they would respond with reason, not emotional reaction. P people are more relaxed and are less likely to posit strong opposition.

    Organized over unorganized can be fairly J, though the last one seems like it might favor the opposite trait, so it's a wash.

    Calm over neurotic, which you skipped, seems maybe P or S.

    Inquisitive over non-inquisitive, maybe the N argument could be made. It's not super-strong, but I can see it a bit.

    So we have ExTP as the weighted best answer. Leaning toward ENTP.

    Of course, the next person could interpret it differently from you or I.
    i have been reading about MBTI-Big 5 correlations from many researches and the key point of understanding the correlations is that for example big 5 extroversion isnt the same thing as MBTI extraversion, they are very similar, but big 5 is more about the outcome of extroversion, while MBTI is about the extraversion of functions, extraversion of dom function usually does lead to similar outcome than what big 5 extroversion is, but its still bit different thing. its same with all the dimensions.

    all the studies said that there is mediocre to strong correlations between scales of agreeableness and F, openness and intuition, extroversion and extraversion, conscientiousness and J. but because the definitions arent exactly the same for all of those, the correlation isnt 100%, but something between 70%-85%. all of the studies also showed that there is no correlation between neuroticism and any MBTI scales.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's also a FACT that happier people are more organized?

    So help me god....
    i have seen studies that confirm this, its measured simply by doing big 5 test and some happiness scale test to people and comparing the scores. so the study doesent say that extroversion or orderliness leads to happiness or that happiness leads to orderliness and extraversion, its just shows that people who score high on conscientiousness and extroversion also score high on happiness more than disorganized and introverted. if i remember right, this correlation disappears in the extreme ends of big 5 scales, but dunno if i remember right
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  8. #48
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    MBTI is still a theory, and a pseudo science at best, so the entire premise is up for question. No, our DNA makeup doesn't change, but other things do, and people change behaviors over the course of their life all the time. If we at typo c could make any kind of a claim about the true wiring, (or rewiring) of the brain using this theory, then we wouldn't be here.

    Also, since type is self reported and VERY open to interpretation based on different environments, it's easy to be able to justify anything. (Perhaps someone's DNA didn't change, but perspective on their own behavior did. The labels are just that, labels. If we all agree that an apple is called an "orange", then an apple then becomes an orange, despite the fact that the item itself didn't actually change.) Since we don't have PET scans (or like tests) relating to very broad "cognitive function" theories, the entire system is still wide open to interpretation. It's about as clear as the Bible.

    The only true argument to say that "MBTI type doesn't change" is that technically the theorists did spend a lot of time studying and writing about the theory, (unlike us) and if we argue with the the theory, then we technically have a new theory all together. Or we could just agree that DNA doesn't change (without saying anything about adaption and changing of the brain.)
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  9. #49
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    tests only measure the outcome of personality, the outcome changes, but the core of personality((function order)/personality as described by jung) grows. it takes new directions, due to adaptation to new situations and past experiences, people learn new ways of acting out(persona changes) in situations, adaptation styles change.
    you are looking at the ego(jungian term, not freudian) growth there, but ego isnt the same as personality(you should know that being psychology student too), this also fools MBTI tests, like persona, but neither are the personality type.
    aka, you are insulating the theory of MBTI from external data. Factual statements that aren't supported empirically, are basically going to fall into one of two categories: true by definition (2+2 = 4), or true "just because"/metaphysical. So our options are:
    <> accept jungian MBTI as a synthetic a priori (ie metaphysics..."MBTI religion")
    <> pretend MBTI is as necessary and universal as 2 + 2 = 4
    <> accept that MBTI needs to be measured to external data... aka keirsey or big 5.
    MECE

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    aka, you are insulating the theory of MBTI from external data. Factual statements that aren't supported empirically, are basically going to fall into one of two categories: true by definition (2+2 = 4), or true "just because"/metaphysical. So our options are:
    <> accept jungian MBTI as a synthetic a priori (ie metaphysics..."MBTI religion")
    <> pretend MBTI is as necessary and universal as 2 + 2 = 4
    <> accept that MBTI needs to be measured to external data... aka keirsey or big 5.
    MECE
    But Keirsey isn't even measured realistically to external data. It's based upon horrible generalizations. Jungian function theory is actually more accurate based upon observable data.

    You sure can tell someone's functions from "observable data" just not as simplistically as the four dichotomies, you actually have to dig for motive and thinking style.

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