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  1. #311
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Ok, what are your concerns?
    you mean what specifically causes me to wonder?
    I don't wanna!

  2. #312
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    you mean what specifically causes me to wonder?
    Probably.

    I've been curious some as well. You do seem cut from a bit different cloth, but I don't have enough specific detail to distinguish how or why, so it's all purely speculatory.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #313
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Probably.

    I've been curious some as well. You do seem cut from a bit different cloth, but I don't have enough specific detail to distinguish how or why, so it's all purely speculatory.
    INTJs are more speculative and less definitive than INTPs because their superior function is iNtuition, yet again the opposite may appear on the outside. As there is the Te there and Ne for us.

    INTPs could easily seem like they dont make judgments about things, but they do internally and that Ne may make it seem like the INTP's remarks are purely speculatory, yet when they internally harbor clear-cut opinions on things.

    We are not in the position to make an assessment yet.

  4. #314
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think I just posted something within the last day that brought out the point that Ne assumes that there is truth waiting to be discovered in the external world -- that the patterns exist and that truth can be derived from them. Ne trusts the external world.

    Ni, on the other hand, is skeptical of the external world because the data streams all have "spin" on them when they come in. If someone tells you something, they automatically have a spin on it; but Ni sidesteps around and "reorients" to see things from many different perspectives.

    If you compare it to Se/Si -- it's the same thing. Se trusts the data it's getting, in real-time, and responds to it; it assumes the data is accurate and that it CAN accurately respond to and capitalize on the data coming its way. Si, on the other hand, is an internalized world based on data acquired in the past; it's like the comfortable, or idealized world, how things SHOULD be. There is implicit distrust of the data coming in; it must all be compared to the Si world before being accepted. (This is why ISxJ types often come across as cynical and have to be convinced that something new is actually GOOD, if it's a change from what they're used to.)

    Maybe the comparison to Se/Si helps you to see how the same "pattern" applies to Ne/Ni.

    For another difference, Ne assumes the observer is "anchored" and the patterns are what is moving; it's like the observer is spinning in place at best, or looking down on the patterns from above and seeing them all unfold. Ni assumes that the pattern is stable, but the observer can walk around the pattern and thus reorient, seeing the pattern from all different sides and thus the meaning/view of the pattern changes. (Does that make sense?)

    So someone using Ne might see a red sports car zooming down the street and will note the physics of the car, where it might be and what it could intersect with, where it might end up, what it could be used for, etc. Ni will look the red sports car and might start thinking not about a fast car but about how red sports car are symbols of prestige in society, and how such things don't make sense because a red car really means nothing of value; or it might start thinking about how cars symbolize freedom, because a person becomes very mobile once they can drive, and...

    Well, you see the meaning there? The Ne person is observing the patterns unfold; the Ni person is flipping through a bunch of different meanings/patterns of significance.

    Since we all have eight functions, N folks have either Ne or Ni as strong and have usually developed a bit of the other as well, so sometimes it can seem to overlap.
    Thanks for taking the time to write so much. But oh dear, I should have said I don't understand any of the functions - Se, Si, Fe, Fi, Ne, Ni, Te and Ti are all equally mysterious to me... I thought I'd start with trying to get my head around Ne vs Ni as I feel I have some understanding of what intuition is (whereas I have no idea what S means in practice, and F is something very awkward requiring logic and analysis to cope with...).

    Your description of Se sounds like intuition? I don't know. S is mysterious to me. For me, data just feeds models in my head.

    Ne vs Ni. I know that your explanations should make sense to me but they don't. [that forehead slap is directed at myself, I hate my brain not being able to absorb concepts!!!] I guess the example of a red sports car is too external, too much real world. I'm in my head more than that. I kinda only absorb data/information if it interests me. Whereas something like a sports car I'll mostly tune out because I'm not really interested in cars. I guess I only pay attention to stuff that will build on current exciting models in my head and it will only be of interest because it fills a gap in my knowledge.

    You mentioned trusting the external world. I guess I don't really trust either the external world or my internal world - I know that my perceptions of the world are not accurate due to my past experiences. Basically, I don't trust anything or anyone. But I know that's from my past, it may not be typical of any MBTI type.

    I suspect I'm more Ni than Ne, but I still don't have a model in my head of the 8 functions that I can play with. I usually pick up concepts pretty quickly but I don't know why I don't understand these ones (I have tried reading some of the function discussions on INTPc and I've googled it a bit - gah, frustrating that I don't get it!]
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  5. #315
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Well, if it's any help, Ni causes people to make huge mental leaps to a conclusion without receiving much data. And when asked how they arrived to that conclusion...that idea or association...they haven't the foggiest.

  6. #316
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    Well, if it's any help, Ni causes people to make huge mental leaps to a conclusion without receiving much data. And when asked how they arrived to that conclusion...that idea or association...they haven't the foggiest.
    But it's always right. Until they get new information and change it. And THEN it's always right. Until...

  7. #317
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    In noticing the ways my posts and my reactions differ from everyone else on INTPC, I've questioned whether I'm really an INTP for awhile. But I don't think I care anymore. On the other hand, since this thread exists now, it might be entertaining to read other people's ideas about my type and the reasons behind them, if there are any.
    I thought that, at one point, you were leaning toward ISTP while on INTPC.

  8. #318
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to write so much. But oh dear, I should have said I don't understand any of the functions - Se, Si, Fe, Fi, Ne, Ni, Te and Ti are all equally mysterious to me...
    Ooops, sorry about that, my bad.

    you do know the shorthand, though?
    Fi = Introverted Feeling
    Fe = Extroverted Feeling
    (etc)


    Your description of Se sounds like intuition? I don't know. S is mysterious to me. For me, data just feeds models in my head.
    Se is actually just "experiencing" life without any processing whatsoever, except to recognize the sensations. You feel the wind blowing in your hair, you hear cars going down the street, you see clouds move across the sky. Basically, "turn off the brain" and just experience life around you without considering it at all... what things you experience. Or, in other words, "raw data."

    Si is an inner world of its own, usually formed from Se data. It's like "my mental image of the world" or "the way I think things should be, based on what I have already experienced in the past."

    The classic example for Si is the notion of a chair. We experience a chair, so we create a memory in our head of a chair... and when we think of the chair, we recollect that image. For people centered in Si, they will continue to think of the chair just like that, and what a chair "should be" and what it "should do"... and when they see another chair in real life, they are less "experiencing it as it is" and more "experiencing their memory and concept of what a chair is." And sometimes, if things have changed, the Si model no longer matches reality.

    So, let's say you know an ISFJ in her 50's, and she seems to "live in the past." This is basically Si at work -- her ideas and concepts were formed from a world that no longer exists, but she won't change the internal landscape to match reality, she only sees what existed when she created that internal image of the world.

    Ne vs Ni. I know that your explanations should make sense to me but they don't. [that forehead slap is directed at myself, I hate my brain not being able to absorb concepts!!!]
    Oh, no, that's okay. Really. It takes awhile, and I can't even claim I've got the "best handle" on things, and other people might be able to explain more, I've been doing MBTI for ten years now, and it was only in the last month or two where I got a clearer understanding of Ni.

    I guess the example of a red sports car is too external, too much real world. I'm in my head more than that. I kinda only absorb data/information if it interests me. Whereas something like a sports car I'll mostly tune out because I'm not really interested in cars. I guess I only pay attention to stuff that will build on current exciting models in my head and it will only be of interest because it fills a gap in my knowledge.
    I picked a car because it was tangible (personally, cars bore me too), but what sort of thing do you find exciting? Maybe an example using one of those things would be easier for you to process.

    You mentioned trusting the external world. I guess I don't really trust either the external world or my internal world - I know that my perceptions of the world are not accurate due to my past experiences. Basically, I don't trust anything or anyone. But I know that's from my past, it may not be typical of any MBTI type.
    Yes, that sounds more like "trust issues" than inherent type (i have similar trust issues from the past as well... I need to check and be wary of anything, because nothing is inherently reliable due to bad experiences with people and situations).

    I suspect I'm more Ni than Ne, but I still don't have a model in my head of the 8 functions that I can play with. I usually pick up concepts pretty quickly but I don't know why I don't understand these ones (I have tried reading some of the function discussions on INTPc and I've googled it a bit - gah, frustrating that I don't get it!]
    Like I said, don't feel bad about it. Once you get it, it will click... but it takes awhile sometimes, and even when you understand some things, other things will not be as clear for a bit. Just go at your own pace.

    Have you seen this chart before? Maybe it'll help. Feel free to ask questions, if you look at it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #319
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ooops, sorry about that, my bad.

    you do know the shorthand, though?
    Fi = Introverted Feeling
    Fe = Extroverted Feeling
    (etc)
    Thanks again for replying in detail. Yes, I know about the shorthand but I don't yet have clear examples in my head for each of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Se is actually just "experiencing" life without any processing whatsoever, except to recognize the sensations. You feel the wind blowing in your hair, you hear cars going down the street, you see clouds move across the sky. Basically, "turn off the brain" and just experience life around you without considering it at all... what things you experience. Or, in other words, "raw data."
    Interesting. Thanks for that explanation, that seems quite clear. I wonder if that's what 'mindfulness' in Buddhism is about?

    I think part of my interest in learning about these 8 functions is that it seems like another way of gaining a different insight about myself and other people (and more data for my models in my head!). Since first learning about MBTI types a few months ago, I sometimes try to picture how life is experienced by people who are a different type to me. But I suspect some ways of being are too alien for me to really 'get'.

    I think having Se as dominant is one of those ways of being that is just too different. I can't picture experiencing the world and switching off thinking and intuiting. That would be losing too much of me. But I know intellectually that it must be a valid a way of experiencing the world, I just can't picture what that would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Si is an inner world of its own, usually formed from Se data. It's like "my mental image of the world" or "the way I think things should be, based on what I have already experienced in the past."

    The classic example for Si is the notion of a chair. We experience a chair, so we create a memory in our head of a chair... and when we think of the chair, we recollect that image. For people centered in Si, they will continue to think of the chair just like that, and what a chair "should be" and what it "should do"... and when they see another chair in real life, they are less "experiencing it as it is" and more "experiencing their memory and concept of what a chair is." And sometimes, if things have changed, the Si model no longer matches reality.

    So, let's say you know an ISFJ in her 50's, and she seems to "live in the past." This is basically Si at work -- her ideas and concepts were formed from a world that no longer exists, but she won't change the internal landscape to match reality, she only sees what existed when she created that internal image of the world.
    Hmm, I'll need to think about this one a bit more. I feel like I almost understand your explanation but not quite. Is it like me seeing a chair and knowing I can sit on it and it will support me, but I might not notice the details of its design or materials?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I picked a car because it was tangible (personally, cars bore me too), but what sort of thing do you find exciting? Maybe an example using one of those things would be easier for you to process.
    Oh dear. This would have been easier 10 or 15 years ago when my mental models were about the physical world. My current mental model that I'm excited by is trying to integrate many ideas/topics into a model of people, behaviour, government, organisations, the world. My data is from psychology, neuroscience, human evolution, HR, self-help books, early childhood development, cultural studies, how governments and organisations really work, history etc. It's all very intuitive and about relationships between the data I have, all big one fuzzy model that is continually (without effort) being tweaked and revised.

    How about something that I used to be excited by that is a bit more real-world and a little bit less abstract... Astronomy. I was really into astronomy as a teenager. But I was excited by the theories (eg of black holes, red dwarves, quasars etc) rather than learning the names of the stars in the sky. Is that a more useful example for the purposes of explaining the functions?

    Unfortunately, nearly all of my previous obsessions have been about theories and abstract stuff. eg if I went through a phase of being excited about a particular historical period, I'd just read and read and think about it, I had no desire to ever visit the place or go to the museum to look at artifacts from that period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, that sounds more like "trust issues" than inherent type (i have similar trust issues from the past as well... I need to check and be wary of anything, because nothing is inherently reliable due to bad experiences with people and situations).
    Sorry to hear that. Learning to trust is particularly difficult in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Have you seen this chart before? Maybe it'll help. Feel free to ask questions, if you look at it.
    Thanks for the link. I think I had stumbled across it on INTPc before but it was too abstract for me unfortunately. When I read something that's very general, my mind switches and spins through past knowledge and data trying to come up with an example that captures the abstract theory so I can understand it. But if something is too abstract, then my mind is kind of just spinning endlessly through data and nothing clicks into place. bleah.

    Thanks again, I appreciate it.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  10. #320
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    I thought that, at one point, you were leaning toward ISTP while on INTPC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Probably.

    I've been curious some as well. You do seem cut from a bit different cloth, but I don't have enough specific detail to distinguish how or why, so it's all purely speculatory.
    I'm satisfied with posts like this. (although it would be cool for some reasoning behind the ISTP comment) I don't want to have a conversation via PM regarding my type. *ahem* I thought I made it clear in my first post that I don't care enough to make it into a big overanalytical mess. I just wanted to be entertained.
    I don't wanna!

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