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  1. #81
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, first of all, it makes no sense to say that two things are exactly the same and then say how they're different. It's a very sloppy use of language. If they're different at all, then they're not exactly the same.

    Sim, I can't believe you gave a +1 to that kind of tripe, for the reasons I just stated above. (-1)
    Ok, my mistake--"exactly the same" is not an effective wording here because there are differences.

    However, Si and Ni are the same in terms of the type of cognitive task they perform, which I think is what OMT was alluding to.

    I think many people (especially INJs) underestimate the similarity between Ni and Si, because I think Si in general is very poorly understood and given a lot of inaccurate descriptions by people who think SJs are all just mindless rule/tradition zombies. (This manifests itself on the forum in terms of ISJs mistyping themselves as INJs being the most common self-typing mistake.)

    VagrantFarce already explained this better than I can, so I'll reference his post here:

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    OK, so I'm pretty sure both Si and Ni are about anticipating things before they happen, whereas Ne and Se are about reacting to things while they happen. So both Si and Ni draw on the past, and both Si and Ni predict the future - but they don't share the same focus.
    This is a good way of putting it. They both deal with interpreting personalized meaning of signs and symbols of all sorts. The criteria used to interpret them is focused differently, but they're performing the same kind of task.

    Also I agree that some of the definitions given here (namely by INTJs) are blurring the line between Ni and Te when they talk about "choosing the most effective way of getting things done", etc. Ni is a perceiving function so it's not making any kind of judgment about anything except the way meaning is interpreted. Ni might see a lot of different ways to look at a problem, but it can't pick the most effective/applicable one without help from Je.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #82
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    They both gather external perceptions and internally organize these perceptions relative to the self, thereby making them personally meaningful (or personally lack meaning).
    What is this talk about external perceptions? And internal organisation relative to the self?

    Methinks you are projecting, P! :p

    Also, someone mentioned the use of an internal standard, what would that one be?

    Si is an introverted perceiving function like Ni (so its functional status might be the same), but IME what Si users see (and how etc.) when they look inside is vastly different from what Ni users see. I suppose they might both see pathways, but how many and where (what does the "inside" look like) and how and to what end and how they are conceptualised and if they can or can't go underground and if they are even there at all and how they are created, what context they live (yes I said live) in, if they can be meta-ed...all very different. These things influence your mentality and the way in which you live significantly IME.

    I think it's difficult to look at the functions in isolation.

    And I think in a way both Si and Ni consider themselves universal and eternal rather than referring to the past, although one can see how they are made up of it (each again in its very own way and with its own approach and unique "introverted perception pool" as a result - concrete vs. conceptual/abstract).

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    it would be better to examine the two through some other lens, set apart by an equal distance from both Ni and Si, that way there's no comparative bias.
    You want to demystify Ni...talk about ambition. Practice the humility you preach, pokémon.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think Si in general is very poorly understood and given a lot of inaccurate descriptions by people who think SJs are all just mindless rule/tradition zombies.
    Those mindless SJ millionaires are a giant pain in the ass.
    I think it's much better to deliver pizza and smoke crack.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Those mindless SJ millionaires are a giant pain in the ass.
    I think it's much better to deliver pizza and smoke crack.
    Then do it, if you aren't already.
    "Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily."
    —Bonaparte

  5. #85
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I find ISTJs hypnotic. I recently encountered two ISTJs, both professionally type tested and satisfied with their profiles. They were like me, but... competent.

    I think that to say Si is about facts and details is to substantially underestimate it as a cognitive resource, indeed as a cognitive project. For example, Si cannot be "a oneness with ageless customs" if it is just a bunch of memories. But since it's an introverted perceiving function, there'll be not just perceptions, but perceptions of perceptions. Which is a bit weird and really hard to understand unless perhaps we recall that Si users will reflect on memories and on current comparisons, and that that reflection is itself perception (given that Si includes, as it is supposed to, accurate recall of detail.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  6. #86
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I think that to say Si is about facts and details is to substantially underestimate it as a cognitive resource, indeed as a cognitive project. For example, Si cannot be "a oneness with ageless customs" if it is just a bunch of memories. But since it's an introverted perceiving function, there'll be not just perceptions, but perceptions of perceptions. Which is a bit weird and really hard to understand unless perhaps we recall that Si users will reflect on memories and on current comparisons, and that that reflection is itself perception (given that Si includes, as it is supposed to, accurate recall of detail.)
    this
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  7. #87
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I think that to say Si is about facts and details is to substantially underestimate it as a cognitive resource, indeed as a cognitive project. For example, Si cannot be "a oneness with ageless customs" if it is just a bunch of memories. But since it's an introverted perceiving function, there'll be not just perceptions, but perceptions of perceptions. Which is a bit weird and really hard to understand unless perhaps we recall that Si users will reflect on memories and on current comparisons, and that that reflection is itself perception (given that Si includes, as it is supposed to, accurate recall of detail.)
    I've read a lot of definitions of perceptions of my perceptions and this is one of the better ones.

    I'm at a loss for words to describe how either Si or Ni work. Since it's an internal, perceptive function, until now I've never really thought about it.

    I like these types of comparative discussions.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    Then do it, if you aren't already.
    No, thanks.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  9. #89
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I've read a lot of definitions of perceptions of my perceptions and this is one of the better ones.

    I'm at a loss for words to describe how either Si or Ni work. Since it's an internal, perceptive function, until now I've never really thought about it.

    I like these types of comparative discussions.
    Introverted perception, as I understand it, is nothing more than "imagination" or "insight". Si is more object-oriented, while Ni is more subject-oriented.

    Hard Si - what I remember others saying must always be right, and what I imagine must be fantasy.

    Hard Ni - what I imagine must always be right, and what I remember others saying must be incorrect.

    The truth, of course, is somewhere in the middle, like it is for almost all things.

  10. #90
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Introverted perception, as I understand it, is nothing more than "imagination" or "insight". Si is more object-oriented, while Ni is more subject-oriented.

    Hard Si - what I remember others saying must always be right, and what I imagine must be fantasy.

    Hard Ni - what I imagine must always be right, and what I remember others saying must be incorrect.

    The truth, of course, is somewhere in the middle, like it is for almost all things.
    That's interesting. Why would you look at it as an subject/object split?

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